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    2020 - The Pre-Runner
    #1
    Keeper of the Asylum K-fab's Avatar
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    I guess this is the place to start.

    I've been out of short course racing since 2000 and, well, I miss it.

    Running the Stadium Lites class, I managed to take second place overall in the US Off Road Championship Series in '98 & '99 and I won the World Championship round at Crandon in '99 (I think it was '99, may have been 2000). *It was some of the most fun racing I've ever done. *Running around the country and racing in stadiums was a blast. *(nobody could believe that I was doing it solo either - I was the Pit Crew, Transport Crew and Race Car Driver all wrapped up in one short, determined package.)

    There's nothing like clearing a 40' table top in front of a stadium full of people.



    With the demise of the stadium series and, in general, the demise of Stadium Lite racing, except on the grass roots level, I moved on and started enjoying the desert instead. *I took a year off and then made my desert racing debut in Sept. of '01. *I had never even seen a desert race, yet here I sat at the starting line in a new, very untested car. *I went 10 miles that day and was totally hooked.

    Even though I'm in the process of having ATV Racing make a new SCORE legal Tazcar for the desert, the urge to build a new car by myself and go do some short course stuff's becoming overwhelming.

    I can't just sit still. *I have to be doing something and I need to have some sort of project happening to keep me sane.

    I really miss short course racing. *There's something about sitting on the line with a bunch of other people hell bent on making it to the corner first that's just plain kick arse. *I hated it on the motocross bike - starts scared the snot out of me, but stick me in a chromoly cage with a six point harness and I'm ready to beat you into submission.

    A couple years ago I had planned on building an Arctic Cat 600 EFI powered single seater - stadium lite size. *I wasn't sure if it was going to be a race car - it was going to be build as one, but it would have been a killer dune car too.

    Circumstances changed, I shelved the majority of the project and sold the engine and a lot of the stuff that would have gone into it. - anyone want a set of 12" rims?

    A couple years ago I started working on a design. *The basics were done in ACAD, as a 600 sized vehicle. *I'm going to take these starting ideas, throw them into Mechanical Desktop 5 and mold them into a larger sized buggy that I can go run in the CORR Super Buggy class.



    The cool thing about this particular class is the lack of rules - it's an open chassis & suspension, limited engine and a minimun weight of 1580 lbs w/driver. *Obviously there are certain rules that I have to meet - tubing type/size, safety things and such, but the general design is free to do as I please.

    From what I've seen, the majority of the Super Buggies are a-arm front, link rear with rear engine and a transaxle setup.

    Not mine. *It's going to be a-arms all the way around and use a mid-engine CVT setup. *I have some ideas that I think have merrit.

    The current desert car that I run uses a live axle CVT setup, driven by, originally, an Arctic Cat 1000 triple sled engine. *I recently dropped the two-smoke and switched to a Yamaha RX1 sled engine, still retaining the CVT. *The new car will be powered by a Honda VTEC B16B engine, still driving a CVT setup.

    I've raced a couple short courses with my desert car against cars very similar to the Super Buggy class cars. *They don't seem to have any advantage on me. - once I got around them, it was "See ya later". *Mind you, I had to work my arse off to get around the other guys, but hey, isn't that what racing's all about?

    My current car is shorter and a bit more maneuverable than the larger cars and I think it may just be the advantage I'm looking for - especially since I'll be racing against some really fast people.

    Since the new desert car is going to be powered by Honda, it only makes sense that the Super Buggy should be the same - the Honda fits the rules. *By having the same drive train in both cars, but in different settings, I should be able to learn the best of both worlds and apply what I learn from each setting to the other. *- only difference is that in SCORE, I get to run fuel injection while CORR says two bbl carb.

    Here's the basic layout and what I'll be using:
    15" or 16" rims - more than likely cast or forged w/bead locks
    BFG sneakers
    VW Wide 5 bolt pattern
    RPM Tranny - probably 9:1, but may also play with 10:1 and 8:1
    Honda B16B VTEC powerplant w/2bbl carb
    Comet drive clutch
    Team driven clutch
    Beard Superseat (probaby the RX series)
    Team-Tech 6 point Jet Pilot harness
    Fox internal bypass shocks
    Howe steering rack - probably power steering setup
    Fuel Safe bladder style fuel tank
    CNC pedal assembly
    CNC, Willwood or possibly Brembo brakes.
    C&R radiator
    Carbon Fiber bodywork

    Up front:
    Double un-equal a-arms
    Probably somewhere in the neighborhood of 20" - 22" of travel
    Hollow, short stub 1.75 diameter spindles
    disc brakes (possibly vented)

    Out back:
    Double Un-equal a-arms
    Probably somewhere in the neighborhood of 20" - 22" of travel
    Mid-board rear hubs
    930 CVs
    300M axles
    Dual rear disc brakes

    Possibly have sway bars?

    I'll make 95% of the car myself and purchase the rest (seat, shocks etc). *Hubs, carriers, spindles and such are already on the drawing board or exist in some shape/form.

    Looks like I'll be spending a lot of time in front of the lathe and the vertical machining center this winter.

    I intend on logging the project both here and, as I've done with my past builds, on my web pages

    This project will get off the ground slowly - summer's here, the motocross tracks and our 50 track are up and running, I need to learn Mechanical Desktop and I have a couple other projects I have to finish, but I have a goal and my focus is starting to get more precise.

    I'll update sometime here in the future.
    Last edited by K-fab; 03-05-2010 at 07:03 PM. Reason: fixing stuff.
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    #2
    Protodie Master and Vendor ProtoDie's Avatar
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    Looking forward to following this build. How much bigger, or what kind of wheel base are you looking to build?
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    #3
    Keeper of the Asylum K-fab's Avatar
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    This is going to be a very small full sized car - or a big mini???

    I'll base it off of the Deztaz, so roughly 90" wheel base and about 80" overall width... I think. I need to do some measuring here soon.
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    #4
    The Bob Ross of MBN Bullnerd's Avatar
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    Hi Rich ,can i call you Rich? Ive been a close follower of your site for years.I was also upset to see the end of the stadium series ,even though i live in New Jersey and only watched on t.v. I followed the build of your moskito very closely and have lots of respect for you and your ability.As a fellow machinist i was very impressed with the rear carriers you machined for the moskito. 8)
    Very much looking forward to following your new project.Please include lots of photos as you always do.
    I am very intrested in learning more about the CVT setups you use and im glad your hear to answer my ? Which reminds me, think its possible to hook one to a stock CBR 600 engine?More on that later.
    Hopefully that didnt sound too ghey. Looking forward to chatting with you in the future.
    Hammer

    P.S. would love to come up and run my daughters 50 with ya.
    "Speed is time-time is speed"-Dennis Hopper

    Quote Originally Posted by TALON View Post
    did you use a special bigfoot camera or something ,you know all blurry could be a tree stump kinda thing .
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    #5
    Keeper of the Asylum K-fab's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Bullnerd
    Hi Rich ,can i call you Rich?
    Uhm... No.
    It's Richard, unless I piss ya off, then you can call me Dick. :shock: 8)

    Quote Originally Posted by Bullnerd
    Ive been a close follower of your site for years. I was also upset to see the end of the stadium series, even though i live in New Jersey and only watched on t.v.
    You don't happen to have any video tapes of that stuff, do you? I don't have any and would love to find some. - they used me doing a lawn dart/endo as the closer to one of the commercials (you know how they always close the commercials with someone eating it big time? - yea, that was me...) and I have always wanted a copy of that crash.

    Quote Originally Posted by Bullnerd
    I followed the build of your moskito very closely and have lots of respect for you and your ability. As a fellow machinist i was very impressed with the rear carriers you machined for the moskito. 8)
    Thanks. Those two carriers are sitting under a shelf on my metal rack now. Kind of a bummer. Considering what it took to make those things back then - w/o any CNC stuff, I guess I didn't do too terribly bad.

    Quote Originally Posted by Bullnerd
    Very much looking forward to following your new project. Please include lots of photos as you always do.
    No worries. I'm already at it with the camera. I need to start up a new web page that chronicles the build. Soon on that. (I'm gonna steal most of these posts and stick them in my pages - why write it twice?)

    Quote Originally Posted by Bullnerd
    I am very intrested in learning more about the CVT setups you use and im glad your here to answer my? Which reminds me, think its possible to hook one to a stock CBR 600 engine? More on that later.
    The automatic response is make some sort of adaptor that attaches a sled clutch to the end of the crank, but you would have to:
    A) figure out how & where to attach said clutch on crank - needs to be on the left side of the engine, but what's there? Magneto? primary drive stuff? Hard to say
    2)make a new case cover that supports the adaptor
    III) Deal with the fact that the crank probably turns 13K, while you don't want to spin a sled clutch much more than 9000 - 9500 or you end up with poofkaboom.

    The RX1 sled engine turns 11K, but it has a reduction of approximately 2/3rds so the clutch only turns 8500 or so. No poofkaboom.

    Quote Originally Posted by Bullnerd
    P.S. would love to come up and run my daughters 50 with ya.
    Bring it on! We just got the track behind my house up and running again last night. Man I've missed it!

    Anyhow, on with the build!
    My design work will start at the wheels and work inward. I'm still not decided on the car's foot print - I need to go take some measurements off of the Deztaz.

    I'll figure out the rims size and offset and then build the hubs and carriers. From there I'll work on suspension and finally the chassis.

    Two things I plan on doing that are a bit different from a lot of the stuff you find in this site are the front spindles and the rear carriers.

    Front spindles are not my design or idea - I'm cheating and copying desert car stuff, but I'm scaling it down a tad.

    The spindles are 4140 chromoly and will be heat treated when I'm done making them. In my application these things should be bullet proof. They're major overbuild, but what the heck. I like the machining challenge of it and the modular setup that they'll have.
    The axle part of the spindle is 1.75" in diam and has a load bearing length of about 2.4". Short, wide & stiff.

    The hollow axle is extremely strong, and being that it's so short, I'll have, comparitively, low torque loading on the spindle body.



    The stub axle bolts onto the spindle - hence the flange shaped left side.

    Here are some pix of the stub axle - it's not been cut off yet nor has the end of it been threaded.



    On the back end of the car, I'm going to use a double a-arm setup that's very similar to the front. What sets this setup aside from most is that I'll be able to control all three axis aspects of movement, just like up front. I'll be able to design in camber, caster and toe changes into suspension movement.

    What? :shock: You can't do that with an a-arm setup! :roll:

    Yes you can - and I know how... 8) (I'll tell more on this later)

    My rear carriers will be very similar to the pix below - just bigger. They are a mid board setup - the CV actually acts as part of the rear axle and carries the load.

    Unfortunately the pix below are not 930 CVs - they're a Type IV setup. The hub uses regular sealed precision roller bearings too - it's all right for a light car, but not for a 1600 lb unit. I need to source out some thin profile tapered roller bearings for what I want to do. I'm having troubles finding them and I know they're gonna be painfully expensive when I do.



    Click on the pix for a better view. They're all referenced from my web pages, so it saves space on this server...
    Last edited by K-fab; 11-02-2009 at 06:23 PM.
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    #6
    The Bob Ross of MBN Bullnerd's Avatar
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    Sorry Rich ,I'll stick to K-FAB.

    Not sure about the vids ,have some mid 80s supercross stuff (Ricky was my hero),but I'll look.

    Too bad those carriers looked sweet from the puter.

    How about you e-mail me cad files as you go and I'll build along with ya? It"ll be a internet (well maybe minibuggy) first. 8) I have access to a full blown CNC shop.

    What if i ran the clutch off the sprocket (or output shaft)or some type of jackshaft?Then i could still select gear.Remember i live in NJ car will be run on my property (3 acres)kinda like your 50 track .So all low end no hi speed running.Ill figure somthing out.

    Nice vid on the track ,looks like a blast.How bigs that second table ,looks like helmutcam cleared it?

    Nice stubs.What brand VMC is that in the pic?No guards?I'll be following along once again.

    Sorry for the Rich thing just "f"in with ya,Richard.

    Hammer
    "Speed is time-time is speed"-Dennis Hopper

    Quote Originally Posted by TALON View Post
    did you use a special bigfoot camera or something ,you know all blurry could be a tree stump kinda thing .
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    #7
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    richy rich, i mean dick, skeeter, or i meant k fab...... 8) any way just pickin, but if them hubs are on your shelf meaninglessly feel free to send them to me, and i found a bearing to house a 930 cv, but it was 500.00 bux... anyway are the hubs you built before per rorty plans, as i see a special thanks from you on his website....... 8)
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    #8
    Keeper of the Asylum K-fab's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Bullnerd
    Sorry Rich ,I'll stick to K-FAB.
    LOL!! No prob.

    Quote Originally Posted by Bullnerd
    How about you e-mail me cad files as you go and I'll build along with ya? It"ll be a internet (well maybe minibuggy) first. 8) I have access to a full blown CNC shop.
    For now I think I'll keep my stuff to myself... Who knows, maybe later I'll let some of it out. (it may not play well with others, so I don't wanna be responsible)

    Quote Originally Posted by Bullnerd
    What if i ran the clutch off the sprocket (or output shaft)or some type of jackshaft?Then i could still select gear.Remember i live in NJ car will be run on my property (3 acres)kinda like your 50 track .So all low end no hi speed running.Ill figure somthing out.
    That could work and would allow you six selections of speed.

    Quote Originally Posted by Bullnerd
    Nice vid on the track ,looks like a blast.How bigs that second table ,looks like helmutcam cleared it?
    It started out at 15' and is now 30'. Once we start clearing it on a regular basis (I was over jumping it Thursday - ouch), it will get extended once again. It's right out of a corner, so we figured it would keep us limited on the approach speed, but we keep getting faster and carrying more speed through the corner, so it gets increased accordingly.

    Quote Originally Posted by Bullnerd
    Nice stubs.What brand VMC is that in the pic?No guards?I'll be following along once again.
    That's a Prototrac Sportbed B3. Pretty basic NC mill, but it's great for simple stuff and hand work.



    My VMC is a Hardinge VMC 1000 II and it has all the guards...



    Quote Originally Posted by bugpac
    richy rich, i mean dick, skeeter, or i meant k fab...... 8)
    DOH!!! :shock: Not you too!!! :wink:

    Quote Originally Posted by bugpac
    any way just pickin, but if them hubs are on your shelf meaninglessly feel free to send them to me, and i found a bearing to house a 930 cv, but it was 500.00 bux... anyway are the hubs you built before per rorty plans, as i see a special thanks from you on his website....... 8)
    Were the bearings tapered roller bearings? Please give me any info on them that you have. - I said that they were gonna be "spensive". Ouch.. :cry:

    I'm gonna hang onto the hubs for now. Maybe later I'll consider letting them go later... Ask me again a bit later on down the road.

    I've talked to Rorty a few times via e-mail - He sent me the [url=http://www.yellowdogracing.com/video/crabvspipe1.mpg:23oyaxmc]crab video[/url:23oyaxmc] I have posted on my web site and a copy of the R6 plans, but that's about it. The hubs are completely of my own design.
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    #9
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    that was a roller bearing cant remember the numbers but the price changed my mind in a big hurry, is there room to redrill the holes in a 930, so the od could be turned to 100 mm? just a thought i know 100 mm bearings are approx 180-250 depends on were you go...
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    #10
    Keeper of the Asylum K-fab's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by bugpac
    that was a roller bearing cant remember the numbers but the price changed my mind in a big hurry, is there room to redrill the holes in a 930, so the od could be turned to 100 mm? just a thought i know 100 mm bearings are approx 180-250 depends on were you go...
    I have a 930 CV outer sitting here beside me.
    No room at all for redrilling - I thought that might be a good idea. There's only .070" wall thickness between the bolt holes and the OD, so that won't work. The bolt pattern places each bolt between each of the ball's lands with about .130" clearance.

    Do you recall the dimensions on the bearings you're talking about? ID of 4.25 with an OD of???

    Most of the tapered roller bearings I've found are 6.25 or larger OD. I can live with a 6" OD, but I'd really like to find one that's closer to 5.25 to 5.5.

    I can find low profile precision ball bearings, but the tapered bearing is elusive.
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