Page 1 of 4 1 2 3 ... LastLast
Results 1 to 10 of 39
  1. Collapse Details
    Micro Stub Fundamentals
    #1
    Senior Member maybebuggy's Avatar
    Join Date
    Sep 2011
    Location
    Scottsdale AZ
    Posts
    347
    Default
    Hi all, when I came to this forum it was pretty steep learning curve. There is lots of information but much of it is posted presupposing a certain level of knowledge. For those brand new looking to understand I thought I would make what I would have liked to have seen 3 months ago as it relates to Micro stubs brake kits. In retrospect this post seems basic but I remember 3 months ago reading this would have saved lots of searching and piecing together facts. More experienced members may wonder why this is posted since it is pretty basic information. Again though, many people show up here with ZERO experience and exposure to making a buggy and the barrier to entry thus seems kinda high. This is an attempt to lower the bar a bit since it is was not presented in one place as of yet is all.

    The Mini buggies need someway to put the power from the engine through the axles to the wheels. At the wheel hub level you will often see "micro stub" and CV's. There is another type hub called mid board. The difference is where the CV is at the most basic level and the pattern of the mounting to the trailing or A arm is very different as is the mounting hole and so is the geometry. They are cool but they are not used much for mini's that get built. It is heavier, more costly, more robust but also more maintenance. Or so I read. The Micro stub appears to be the hub choice for minis being built but frankly they use them on class cars as well. It ranges in size and strength which I'll cover in a bit. You can see mid board and micro stub trailing arms several places including here, pretty similar but the mounting plates are different and the dimensions are a bit different. --> Kartek Off Road - Rear Trailing Arms

    First, the Micro stub parts are important to understand. It is also important to understand you can buy any bit of that separately but it will cost more than buying the whole kit. A confusing thing is Micro Stub typically refers to an "entire brake kit from stub axle to wheel flange". Typically they come with brakes but as you'll see in a minute you can do it without brakes too. If you need it without brakes there are several options I'll go over.

    The parts:
    30 Micro Stub Axle #1
    Mount Plate #2
    Hub Bearing Carrier #3
    Rotor #4
    Rotor Hat #5
    Wheel Adapter Plate #6
    Axle Nut #7
    Center Cap #8
    Wheel Nuts #9
    CV Bolts #10
    Caliper #11
    Brake Pads #12



    The stub kit is mounted to the training arm plate in the graphic below minus the calipers. The Bearing carrier #3 mounts to the training arm or A-arm as shown below. Then,on the back side of #1 which is the stub axle, you mount the CV joint itself and the axle to that. The picture shows the trailing arm with the micro stub set up mounted but no CV. Google for that you'll see it clearly. Some kits come with brake brackets that range from bolt on, weld on, to no brake brackets at all. Be mindful of that.


    There you should understand something else you'll see a lot of, and that is talk of bolt pattern. You can see what they mean by bolt pattern by understanding how it is measured. It refers to number of lugs and spacing which you can see in the link. ---> Wheel Tech - Bolt Pattern

    I will be talking about full size wheels. You can also get smaller kits for UTV wheels which are typically 4 bolt pattern. If your doing that check ProtoDie they have parts for UTV based builds and 4 stud Bearing carriers and what not. It is less expensive compared to full size stuff too if your going with UTV based builds with regard to wheels and hubs. ---> http://www.protodie.com/Rear%20Wheel%20Kits.htm

    For full size stuff you can cross reference all kinds of bolt patterns here. That comes in handy when you want to get bearing carriers from F150's or Intrepids or what not if you want to roll your own kit for some reason. ---> Wheel Bolt Pattern Cross Reference Database and Conversion Guide

    Remember part #3 above, that comes in what is known as Chevy S10 Bolt pattern which is a 5 lug 4.75 inch or 121 mm. The back side is 3 bolt for the suspension arm mount. The reason many kits use Adapter plate #6 is to adapt the Chevy bolt pattern for the wheels to what is known as VW 5 by 205 mm. There are lots of good lightweight VW wheels in small buggy sizes, not so much for Chevy wheels.

    The next question is where do you get them? Makers of kits are below and rear kits range from $1000 - $2000. Some come with Stub axles and bearings and some don't come with either or both. Read carefully before you buy. Make sure you look at Micro Stub not Mid Board.
    *Pro-Am
    *Jamar
    *CNC
    *EMPI
    *RBP Mfg

    You can see some kits here. --> Pacific Customs: Rear Disc Brake Kits and Dune Buggy Parts, Sandrail Parts, VW Parts

    One inexpensive way to do things is to make your own minimal set up. Often many people use the brake on the center spool with a single caliper so no wheel brakes needed in many cases. That means no parts #2, #4, #5, #11 or #12.

    Here is a picture of what a trailing arm with just the bearing carriers and adapter plates look like. The adapter plate #6 with VW bolt pattern is bolted directly to Bearing carrier #3 with Chevy bolt pattern. You can see inside the VW studs the Chevy stud nuts used to hold the adapter plate on. Compare that picture to the picture above with the trailing arms and you'll see the rotor componentry not installed. befing hte sprocket in the picture will be a brake rotor, better picture will be coming up. So that is where the brakes are in this case. A single centered caliper for both wheels.



    As mentioned, you can unbolt the adapter plate with those 5 inner nuts, save money and weight and use Chevy bolt pattern directly under the VW adapter plate if you would like. Notice no rotors or calipers or rotor hat or caliper mount. Pretty slick and clean and it took me a while to figure out you could do this although it seems obvious now. You do not have to buy a full on brake kit if you are going to run a single center brake caliper.


    You can see the single rotor and micro stubs with no wheel brakes in this picture. It shows the center brake and sprocket set up. On the drivers side you can see thee Micro stub axle and the Bearing carrier installed and on the passenger side you can see the mounting plate and hole. Couple places sell 930 live center spool for chain drive spool like Yoshi at http://www.sinistersandsports.com , http://www.protodie.com , www.gear-one.com , http://www.tomprodesign.com and probably some others.




    I could not find a link for Yoshi's but he has them and they are really nice and really narrow. Here is a link to chain drive center spools from Proto Die and gear One if you want to see a bit more closely what they look like. ---> http://www.protodie.com/Drive%20Train.htm and http://www.gear-one.com/Htmls/mini.html


    Micro stub axle splines then come in 23, 27 and 33 splines. There are some other sizes like 28 spline but the three I mentioned seem to be the most common at least. It is worth noting that as you go from 24 up to 33 spline the cost goes up. The parts get beefier and more costly. 33 spline subs are 2x the cost of 24 spline for example. But you can shop around or go off brand or between brands you can maybe bring the cost down, my comment was comparing parts from the same manufacturer like Pro-Am. For sure 2x the cost there. If you look Dodge Intrepid bearing carriers from Timken you will see they are 33 spline. They are pretty nice and are way cheaper than "buggy" stuff. Great! This means you would need 33 spline axle stubs, part #1 which you can get from Empi not too expensively. Of course the bolt patterns is neither Chevy nor VW. You would have to use Dodge wheels or have plates made to go from Intrepid to VW bolt pattern for example. Also the regular wheel plates you get for trailing arms are often drilled for the S10 set up, you would have to re-drill them or make new custom plates for the mounting side. If your doing everything yourself custom, it is a GREAT option and you can do a 33 spline Intrepid set up pretty cheap, mind you the 33 spline stubs are a lot more than the 24 spline. If you want to use off the shelf stuff like I do then it is less of an option and the hastle goes up.

    Off the shelf means easy replacement parts for me. Wad up a trailing arm and it is nice to have Kartek ship parts out to make new ones instead of having to make it all over again from scratch. Fine for some not for all, you decide your path on that. I can say if I was making everything myself it would be a lot cheaper than using of the shelf stuff.

    Where do you go to find out bearing specs? You can go here and hunt and peck to your hearts content in an attempt to roll your own. ---> Timken Online Parts Catalog

    If you check Moore's you can see parts and I have sample prices listed, but you can also check Pacific Customs and SandParts.com who has great prices and is a forum sponsor and several others including Ebay. The link and prices below are representative but show you what it takes to build your own kit partial Brake-less kit as opposed to buying a full kit. You can shop around for different manufacturers from different vendors. For example I have seen Stub Axles range from $90 to $120 for the same part. It pays to shop around a bit. Get parts from a premium maker and cost goes up more, most of the parts you see are Latest rage and are Chinese and almost all of the micro stub axles people sell are Empi which are also Chinese. Hit up CNC or Pro am and watch the cost triple for example. Is it worth it, I don't know, that is a individual value judgment based on your need, A GSXR600 buggy is different than an LS1 powered buggy for example. The Empi stubs seem to be good, bearings are a question in my mind but I may be wrong about that. In the end I wanted non Chinese for any of it mainly due to not wanting to be stranded in the desert and the price difference is not THAT much worse.

    Here is a roll your own type set up with sans wheel brakes for example.

    Hub/Bearing 3.6" - $185.00 x2 = $370
    24 Spline 930 Stubs - $120.00 x2 = $240
    CV bolts 2.00 $20.00 - x2 = $20
    Flange Wheel Studs - $2.00 x10 = $20
    VW Adapter Flange - $95.00 x2 = $190
    Axle Nut - $9.00 x2 = $18
    Total = $858

    All of those parts listed above as well as other parts like rotors and hubs can be found in the links below. Some vendors only have some where some have all of it in one stop. Prices vary and look else where as well, this is just a sample lots of places have the stuff including Ebay.

    ---> VW Brakes & Rear Suspension : VW Disc Brakes Micro Stub - Dune Buggy Parts, Sandrail Parts, VW Parts - MooreParts.com
    --->http://www.kartek.com/Product/DriveT...riveTrain.html
    ---> http://www.pacificcustoms.com/micro-stub.html
    --->http://www.sandparts.com/servlet/the...ies/Categories


    If you get the 24 spline bearing carrier and 24 spline axles and use the Chevy wheel pattern that is on the carrier itself you can get going cheaply which means no Flange Adapter (part #6) and by doing a brake on the center spool you also eliminate the parts I listed 2 paragraphs ago by going brake less at the wheels. One thing to note, many of the 24 spline bearing carriers are Latest Rage which are Chinese. I called and verified this with several of them. Is that bad? Not sure, up to you. You can also go to Timken and buy S10 bearing carriers from them which are US made and first rate quality for less money. Sand parts has the stubs at a great price. So, if you for example, you do the Latest Rage bearings and Empi 24 spline stubs and you have a good set up done on a budget. Buy a used caliper on Ebay or what not and your good. I believe the Latest Rage part number is #AC525102-HUB and you can get them on Ebay all day for about $100 and in links above. Double check my part number before jumping in.

    Compare the Timken to Latest Rage for example.
    Timken --> http://www.ebay.com/sch/i.html?_nkw=....c0.m270.l1313
    Latest Rage --> http://www.pacificcustoms.com/AC501430-33.html


    I wanted 33 spline, non Chinese bearing, 3.6" trailing arm hole not 3.9" with Chevy bolt pattern. Without resorting to making custom plates and what not, I had to do something else since the Timken catalog yielded no results wiuth bearing carriers that meet my needs. Since most Adapter plates are designed to mount to Chevy pattern I had to pass on F150 and Intrepid and several others. Again, I wanted off the shelf parts for several reasons including Adapter plates and compatibility with mounting plats, this may not apply to others of course. Making it is cheaper and poses no problems or risks. It all depends of the individual needs and abilities.

    You can see off the shelf flanges in a few places, notice the 3 hole mounting pattern for S10 style Bearing carriers, use something other than S10 style and you have to re-drill them or make them. I wanted to stay with off the shelf compatibility is all so I stayed with S10 style, it is just easier for me. Below is an off the shelf Micro stub mounting plate for the S10 Carrier. use something like F150 and you'll be drilling more holes. Pacific Customs, Moore and Kartek have them just to name a small few. All kinds of plates and stuff check here too. --> http://www.dtprofab.com/12051-ROUND-...NGE_p_127.html



    Be advised also that center hole is 3.6" or 3.9" most are 3.6". Make sure you match that up and look closely at other non S10 carriers or you may be hogging out that center hole as well or worse, that hole in the plate may be too big. It is stated in the Timken catalog that diameter requirement. All in all I just stayed with S10 style. I wanted beefier than 24 spline for no good reason. More on what I did in a bit.

    Timken Spec example with the mounting hole diameter circled for reference. Notice the Bolt Circle diameter above it and stud count above that a bit. If you could scroll down you would see "spline count" as well. Lots of detail listed check out the Timken link above just a bit. If you were to scrol down it would show the Spline count as well.



    How big or how robust or how premium a kit do you need? Well it depends on use. I plan on racing so I will not e cutting corners on parts. If your playing around it is less critical. Much like the frame welds.

    In the end I wound up doing not 24 but 27 Spline Stub and bearing combo for 3.6" hole from Kartek with VW adapter plates in the S10 Chevy bolt pattern which fits with off the shelf mounting plates. So it is S10 compatible with regard to mounting(off the shelf comaptibility) with 27 spline count Timken breaing and carrier. The kit comes from Kartek, it is a set up they used to for for Sand King cars I gather. It is basically their 27 spline Sportsman kit with no brakes. So bigger, beefier and std Micro Stub and with non Chinese bearing bearings and carriers. It is not on their web site but they have a brake-less kit. I want specific wheels due to weight and strength and they are only available in VW bolt pattern so I needed plates. After I priced it all out including nuts and studs and what not it was not that much more to just get that 27 spline Pro-am kit vs the cheaper 24 spline Timken/Chinese combo stuff. I could have saved hundreds if I had gone 24 spline but my needs were one that necessitated spending. Or so I think, I cold be wrong, I am new here too.

    Your needs may vary, but at least you know how it goes together, where to look and how to understand what your looking at. What you do and what parts you use is completely up to you, there are many options available from mild to wild from budget to premium or combination in between. There is no better or best, only what works for you given your application. Truly.

    Anyhow, there is a sticky all about CV joints which mount to the back side of the Stub axles, check into that. Hope this helped someone.

    Good luck!
    Last edited by maybebuggy; 02-29-2012 at 09:18 AM.
    Reply With Quote
     

  2. Collapse Details
    Re: Micro Stub Fundamentals
    #2
    Senior Member maybebuggy's Avatar
    Join Date
    Sep 2011
    Location
    Scottsdale AZ
    Posts
    347
    Default
    Almost forgot...

    Here is the 27 spline to give some context with regard to size. It is pretty beefy. Probably overkill. I definitely did not need 33 spline. They guys out here were right. I would have been quite fine with 24 spline and saved a few hundred dollars with Latest Rage bearings, Empi stubs and Latest Rage adapter plates. Ahh well live and learn. I am good with what I got. These are beefy as hell and I won't ever have to revisit this bit of componentry due to breakage or wear and life span should be very very good.


    And the back side of the Pro-Am hubs and the bearing carrier.
    Last edited by maybebuggy; 02-29-2012 at 09:21 AM.
    Reply With Quote
     

  3. Collapse Details
    Re: Micro Stub Fundamentals
    #3
    Senior Member
    Join Date
    Sep 2006
    Location
    Groves, Texas
    Posts
    994
    Default
    Let me be the first to thank you for putting all this together, in on place and easy to understand for all to see. Thanks maybebuggy, i have been on here for a while and you have made it easy to understand..
    Reply With Quote
     

  4. Collapse Details
    Re: Micro Stub Fundamentals
    #4
    Admin Gene's Avatar
    Join Date
    Dec 2005
    Location
    Soyo, Angola Africa
    Posts
    6,715
    Default
    Thanks for this important post. It is something that was needed and many will be grateful for your effort.

    Thus it is a sticky.
    Reply With Quote
     

  5. Collapse Details
    Re: Micro Stub Fundamentals
    #5
    Millenium Member
    Join Date
    Dec 2006
    Location
    NW Georgia
    Posts
    2,569
    Default
    Sweet combo of info!!

    One more bit, the f150 stuff, the reason it was desireable, was because you can slip a standard 28 spline 930 axle in it. Timkin f150 wheel hub $120, empi f150 outer cv which has the "micro stub" made to it $65. But you do have to drill your own mount holes for hub and still need more common vw adapters or run ford wheels.
    Reply With Quote
     

  6. Collapse Details
    Re: Micro Stub Fundamentals
    #6
    Senior Member
    Join Date
    Sep 2011
    Location
    Chattanooga, TN
    Posts
    389
    Thumbs up
    Thanks for the writeup. I'm familiar with hubs and axles, but I am not up to speed on the ministub setups. I'm glad I decided to get help from the pros on this board before starting out. After reading your summary it appears I have been steered in a very good direction.
    Reply With Quote
     

  7. Collapse Details
    Re: Micro Stub Fundamentals
    #7
    Default
    Great write up! Nice to have all the info in one place. Can anyone post links to 24 spline, 27 Spline, and 33 Spline microstubs? I'm having some difficulty locating 27 spline microstubs anywhere but Kartek.
    Reply With Quote
     

  8. Collapse Details
    Re: Micro Stub Fundamentals
    #8
    Senior Member maybebuggy's Avatar
    Join Date
    Sep 2011
    Location
    Scottsdale AZ
    Posts
    347
    Default
    Kartek is it for 27, it is their special deal through Timken with some special alloy based stubs of their own. That 27 spline is sweet huh? The 24 and 33 spline stuff is in the link for Moores for one place. Pretty much available everywhere.
    Reply With Quote
     

  9. Collapse Details
    Re: Micro Stub Fundamentals
    #9
    Member
    Join Date
    Jan 2011
    Location
    Perth, Western Australia
    Posts
    39
    Default
    Now that its a sticky, can you put the images on another image sharing site please? Pretty please?

    Imageshack is complete crap, demanding registration from all and sundry just to view images. I see their dopey frog all over this site now. Well there's no way they're getting my details.

    Cheers
    Robbo.
    Reply With Quote
     

  10. Collapse Details
    Re: Micro Stub Fundamentals
    #10
    Senior Member
    Join Date
    Apr 2009
    Location
    Boise, Idaho
    Posts
    115
    Default
    Great write up! very helpfull. I did catch one flaw I believe, all the chevy s-10 bearing hubs that i can find including the one listed are 27 spline, not 24 spline. So I believe they will not work with latest rage 24 spline, like mentioned above. Which means as best as I can tell you either have to go all latest rage (24 spline), kartek 27 spline maybe use s10 bearing there, or empi-race trim 33 spline, with the option of the dodge 33 spline hub. You can correct me if i'm wrong but thats what i'm finding...
    Reply With Quote
     

Page 1 of 4 1 2 3 ... LastLast

Similar Threads

  1. Short Spline / Micro Stub
    By maybebuggy in forum Driveline
    Replies: 10
    Last Post: 11-19-2012, 04:09 PM
  2. Need micro stub: ATV stub to 930 CV
    By Wayneski in forum Suspension - Wheels & Tires
    Replies: 19
    Last Post: 09-19-2010, 09:58 PM
  3. Micro stub recomendations anyone?
    By intfit in forum Driveline
    Replies: 17
    Last Post: 07-17-2010, 02:07 AM
  4. Micro stub mounting
    By robracing in forum Driveline
    Replies: 2
    Last Post: 03-25-2010, 11:53 AM
  5. Micro Stub dimensions, again
    By hero_saku39 in forum Driveline
    Replies: 39
    Last Post: 07-14-2008, 08:09 PM

Bookmarks

Posting Permissions

  • You may not post new threads
  • You may not post replies
  • You may not post attachments
  • You may not edit your posts
  •