Page 1 of 9 1 2 3 ... LastLast
Results 1 to 10 of 85
  1. Collapse Details
    Should builders follow certain class rules?
    #1
    Default
    I think a lot of us are building based on plans or whatever comes to mind. I have seen lots of questoins about how long, how wide, what powerplant, what tires etc. There are single seaters, 2 seaters, side by sides, midibuggy, etc. Pretty confusing isn't it? Something I think builders should try to do or maybe even they are already trying to do is try to follow the specs different organizations use for car safety when building, and a "rule book" would answer a lot of those questions.

    Say I want to build a "stadium lite" I would want to build it to specs determined by the majority of racing organization requirements. Is there any place to find these requirements....a rule book per se? I would hate to finish a build with the intention of racing only to find out that my car wouldn't pass specs. This applies to all cars. We need a place here where we can access the information we need. We need an expert to develop a rules book for cars based on their experience with different organizations such as PACE, SCORE, CORR, etc.

    I have been following lites for a number years, and I see a huge growth in the sport in the next few years. Just look at what the rhinos and trophy carts are doing. The kids driving these trophy carts will want to upgrade to something faster one day. Right now I don't think a "sanctioning body" governs a large race series for stadium lite vehicles. So in the interest of safety and uniformity we need to develop a set of rules that will be accepted by most race promoters. This will help us develop a set of cars that are race ready. This will also simplify things for builders and hobbyists because they would have a target to aim for in their build. Whether you plan on racing or not if you build a car to "race" specs you will be building a safe car, and as a bonus, you could race it if you ever wanted to.

    Maybe I am thinking too broadly?? Sometime in the future there will be racing venues that want to open their tracks for mini buggies and when they do we need to be ahead of the game with a set of specs and rules that they can live with.

    I apologize if this post seems rambling, but I think its something we could address now to help the sport in the future.
    Reply With Quote
     

  2. Collapse Details
    Re: Should builders follow certain class rules?
    #2
    Senior Member
    Join Date
    Sep 2006
    Location
    Groves, Texas
    Posts
    994
    Default
    I agree for the most part. Maybe what's needed is for the buggy building companies, designers,plans producers and all possible race organiations get together to work it out. But it aint gonna happen. What might happen is for someone with enough sence and determination to wade thru all the rule books and with, possibly some discussion all around,on this site and with buggy building companies,to hash out a set of build specs that would meet or beat all race organisations rules . One man, or maybe a very small group of very deterimined and driven men could do this i think.
    Reply With Quote
     

  3. Collapse Details
    Re: Should builders follow certain class rules?
    #3
    Default
    In Australia, we used to run under TORC rules and regulations (which I was instrumental in revising and implementing when as Chief Scrutineer and later, President), even though we came under the CAMS (Confederation of Australian Motor Sport) umbrella. Now TORC is being forced to complying with the mainstream CAMS regulations.

    In the US, as far as I can see, the various race series come and go and people and organisations were seemingly always falling out over rules etc., so there doesn't appear to be an easy answer.

    There are currently quite a number of organisations in the US that, even though they aren't specifically mini buggy promoters, allow mini buggies to run at their events. Some simply require certain safety standards to be met and others mandate more fundamental aspects such as materials and chassis dimensions.

    Often those materials regulations are carried over from other classes of much larger and heavier cars, penalising our little mini buggies (the use of 1.5" tube springs to mind). Unfortunately there's never been the same popularity or money involved in racing our smaller cars and we're therefore the poor cousins with virtually no voice.

    I agree though, it would be fantastic if there were national guidelines for designers and builders because then not only would we all have some direction, but manufacturers would start making components specifically for our cars.
    Reply With Quote
     

  4. Collapse Details
    Re: Should builders follow certain class rules?
    #4
    Default
    I know the answer. In the days of the Mini Mag you could spend $25,000 and still be in the way of the $5,000 Class 9 car. It's the short wheelbase that makes us slow. The original wheelbase spec was set by the Honda Pilot. There is more. Torque, tire size, fuel capacity and weight. But mostly MONEY.

    Not enough torque to run long with the big boys. Stock Busa 1300 cc 175 HP / 98 lbs Torque. Stock VW 1600 cc 55 HP 150 lbs Torque.
    Not enough interest. The current little car is the Rhino. Huge numbers of $25,000+ Rhinos are showing up and racing. Talk about slow! But the guys love 'em.

    Starting order is based on fastest cars to the slowest. I think TT's and Class 1 is a political victory for the TRUCK Guys. This starting order was copied from race-dez.com
    TT,1,SIT,10,8,PT,SL,1 2/1600, 5, 7, 5/1600, 7S, 7SX, SF, SM, 9, 3, JS1, JS 3, SPTTRUCK, SPTCAR, 11, SPT UTV

    The most interesting thing for me is the 1/2-1600's start and finish before the Class 5's.
    The Unlimited Baja Bug (Class 5) can run 3000 cc plus Porsche engines (Unlimited, Air Cooled) $15,000 Fortin gear box, (Unlimited $$$) Unlimited Travel (Beam Front Suspension)
    Wheelbase limited to 109".
    A 1600 car can run 1600 cc VW air cooled engine, stock length/ width front suspension, limited rear suspension (recently changed from stock dims' + 930 CV). VW transmision Unlimited wheelbase.

    If the Class 5 has twice the displacement and twice the travel why are the 1600's faster?

    Now look at the last 2 classes in the starting order. Class 11 and Sportsman UTV (Rhino) Google both. Stock $8,000 VW's start before $25,000 Rhinos.

    The comparisons don't stop SL Score Lites limited to VW 1835 cc faster than Unlimited Bajas...

    I'm a real race fan and a fan of the mini. It would be cool to see our class improve but it will not happen until the wheelbase is stretched.
    Reply With Quote
     

  5. Collapse Details
    Re: Should builders follow certain class rules?
    #5
    Default
    Quote Originally Posted by Desertkarts\";p=\"43950
    I know the answer. In the days of the Mini Mag you could spend $25,000 and still be in the way of the $5,000 Class 9 car. It's the short wheelbase that makes us slow. The original wheelbase spec was set by the Honda Pilot. There is more. Torque, tire size, fuel capacity and weight. But mostly MONEY.

    Not enough torque to run long with the big boys. Stock Busa 1300 cc 175 HP / 98 lbs Torque. Stock VW 1600 cc 55 HP 150 lbs Torque.
    Not enough interest. The current little car is the Rhino. Huge numbers of $25,000+ Rhinos are showing up and racing. Talk about slow! But the guys love 'em.

    Starting order is based on fastest cars to the slowest. I think TT's and Class 1 is a political victory for the TRUCK Guys. This starting order was copied from race-dez.com
    TT,1,SIT,10,8,PT,SL,1 2/1600, 5, 7, 5/1600, 7S, 7SX, SF, SM, 9, 3, JS1, JS 3, SPTTRUCK, SPTCAR, 11, SPT UTV

    The most interesting thing for me is the 1/2-1600's start and finish before the Class 5's.
    The Unlimited Baja Bug (Class 5) can run 3000 cc plus Porsche engines (Unlimited, Air Cooled) $15,000 Fortin gear box, (Unlimited $$$) Unlimited Travel (Beam Front Suspension)
    Wheelbase limited to 109".
    A 1600 car can run 1600 cc VW air cooled engine, stock length/ width front suspension, limited rear suspension (recently changed from stock dims' + 930 CV). VW transmision Unlimited wheelbase.

    If the Class 5 has twice the displacement and twice the travel why are the 1600's faster?

    Now look at the last 2 classes in the starting order. Class 11 and Sportsman UTV (Rhino) Google both. Stock $8,000 VW's start before $25,000 Rhinos.

    The comparisons don't stop SL Score Lites limited to VW 1835 cc faster than Unlimited Bajas...

    I'm a real race fan and a fan of the mini. It would be cool to see our class improve but it will not happen until the wheelbase is stretched.
    Quite a detailed post there Greg, but your last sentence was the most poignant: "It would be cool to see our class improve but it will not happen until the wheelbase is stretched".

    The thing is, if we stretch our wheelbases, then we're no longer mini buggies and if we wanted to race bigger cars, then, as you have illustrated, there are plenty of competitive classes to choose from.

    Reply With Quote
     

  6. Collapse Details
    Re: Should builders follow certain class rules?
    #6
    Default
    Desert racing and short course are two different things. Short wheel base cars do well on short course. Since I have no desert near me, I am biased toward short course.

    There is a start: http://www.greatlakesoffroad.com/rules.html

    I guess it does not have length and width limits on there. The width limit was 68", but got bumped to 70" a couple years back. Width is limited to make sure people can pass. Length does not really hurt the other drivers and is track dependent if an advantage or disadvantage.
    Reply With Quote
     

  7. Collapse Details
    Re: Should builders follow certain class rules?
    #7
    Protodie Master and Vendor ProtoDie's Avatar
    Join Date
    May 2005
    Location
    S.W. Michigan
    Posts
    2,717
    Default
    This is nothing sanctioned, but a few years back, a bunch of the guys at the pilot-odyssey board were working on some racing rules or specs to use when the stadium races came to town.

    We worked to most of these specs when designing our buggies.

    I will try to attach a word doc
    Reply With Quote
     

  8. Collapse Details
    Re: Should builders follow certain class rules?
    #8
    Keeper of the Asylum K-fab's Avatar
    Join Date
    Jun 2006
    Location
    Scottsdale, AZ. 10.9 miles from the trailheads
    Posts
    10,105
    Default
    Lites in the desert are unfortunately a bit of a joke. *Yea, they can be fun and I've seen a few Pilots at a couple Whiplash races, but in general, we need to focus on short course style racing for the Lites. *If you want to desert race a Lite, then you need to talk to the sanctioning body, beg and plead your case.

    Short Course racing is, at least to me, any track that is a closed loop. *(No, an 80 mile loop like BITD runs is NOT short course) *Length can vary from the fair grounds sized track to something along the size of the Lake Elsinore Grand Prix (7 miles?) * In general, I would consider a short course track one that 90% can be seen from the stands or pits or area directly around the track. *Lake Elsinore would be the outer ends of the limits.

    The original Lites rules were based off the old Mickey Thompson Grand Prix rules. *They were pretty tight - OAL, OAW, engine displacement, weight and the likes. *They were base around the old 350 Odyssey, to a point (or so I understand - I may be very wrong).

    I believe that SODA (now CORR) used those plans as a base and then allowed a few changes (guessing here, as I never ran SODA) - wheel base, width, engine displacement for the vehicles as the speeds at Crandon versus the speeds in a stadium are drastically different. *(I saw 35-40 mph max in the stadiums while hitting right around 70 mph at Crandon)

    When PACE started the racing in 98 they seemed to use rules that were sort of a cross breed of the two sets of rules. * It limited things like Drakarts, though as they were too long, (wide?) and the engine displacement was too large.

    From what I've seen on the various boards (I've not been to a Lites race in 7 years), most of the race tracks are open to the rules to a point. *Their main concern is safety (which is very good), but they allow the races to sort of juggle out the classes and make the rules according to the vehicles that show up.

    With enough of us playing in the Lites class(es), and with the interest it's starting to generate again, the smart thing to do would be take a poll of sorts and talk to those that are racing and see what the specs of each person's Lite is.

    Draks and LT 500 powered Pilots appear to be able to run together well (at least Radical Rich's pilot) *The Protodie guys are competitive with the m/c powered cars against other similar vehicles - including some Pilots from what I understand.

    We need to start up a thread (that's very focused and doesn't wander off with hijackings) that states the sizes of the vehicles that are being raced - this would need to include (measured as if the vehicle is sitting on the start line - full of fuel, suspension at ride height, driver in it):
    Overall Length
    Overall Width
    Wheel Base
    Engine Displacement
    Possibly tire and wheel diameter? (SODA required 13" wheels as they were sponsored by one of the tire mfgs) *- no, the more that I think about that it shouldn't be part of the rules...

    If we can find a general size that the vehicles being raced in I believe that would be a great base for a set of rules.

    Obviously we also need to set up safety rules - that's pretty easy - just look on CORR, SCORE, BITD and the guys running races already.

    5-point or 6 point harness
    Fire Suit
    Helmet with the latest DOT/SNELL helmet
    gloves
    5 lb. fire extinguisher on board
    Fuel Cell or a fuel container that's obviously well protected and won't leak away in a roll over
    Window nets
    Wrist restraints (?)

    Chassis build may be one of the more open things that really needs to be thought about - roll cage on a car under 1000 lbs can probably be 1.25x.083 DOM as long as it has correct bracing. *The majority of the chassis could probably be safe with this size tubing too. *Bracing can be subjective - a correctly triangulated setup could be done with 1x.049 and be more than strong enough.

    If we can get a set of basic layout rules written up and then post them on all the board that are known to have Lites people on and ask the people to fill in their ideas, we could put together a good broad based database that will probably start to follow specific trends for each aspect of the rules. *Take the answers that are the most common (as you know someone's going to be out in left field on certain answers - 100" wheel base with a Hybusa or 50" wheel base with a B&S 15 hp industrial) and work from there.

    If we can then get a general set of rules set up, take these rules to any place that might consider letting Lites run and discuss them with the sanctioning body.

    State the focus of the rules, where the rules came from (the racers themselves) and then see if the race promoters are open to the ideas.

    Be willing to listen to any input the promoters may have (we're coming into their playground, they don't have to do squat for us)

    Don't get riled up at their suggestions or unwillingness to talk (if so, see who else in the system you might be able to talk to and then take that to them).

    Listen to their input, be professional in the approach and be willing to argue any points in a calm collected manner.

    We'll have to make ourselves look as professional, prepared and business like as possible if we want this sort of thing to work.

    The first person that turns on the arsehole switch during one of these meetings will BLOW IT FOR EVERYONE, so keep that in mind, keep the ego in the pocket and say please, thank you and I see where you're coming from.

    Anyhow, these are just my ideas and opinions - I hope that they make some sense and I'd really like to hear what the rest of you guys have to input on the whole idea of getting rules for us to go play by set in motion and in place so we can go play.
    Reply With Quote
     

  9. Collapse Details
    Re: Should builders follow certain class rules?
    #9
    Default
    Not enough torque to run long with the big boys. Stock Busa 1300 cc 175 HP / 98 lbs Torque. Stock VW 1600 cc 55 HP 150 lbs Torque.
    This is what I am talking about. We need to develop a "baseline" car for each class....as much as I hate to compare to NASCAR we need a template...a "car of tomorrow" so to speak. Look at the SAE cars and how different each of them are, but they have to follow a very detailed set of rules.

    The reason that that the rhinos and rzr's are racing is because there are rules in place for racing them, and things are fairly "equal" between them. I think the more we can equalize the cars the more people would be interested in racing them. Nobody wants to spend 10 or 20k on a car, spend who knows how much to show up for a race, pay entry fees, and get their tail handed to them because someone else used a 700cc sled motor instead of a 600 like everyone else.

    As far as equalization goes I feel that this is the most important key to getting these things racing again. Look at the racing classes for mini dwarfs, trophy carts, and karts in general. With a solid set of rules almost anyone can be competitive without breaking the bank. Racing isn't cheap to be sure, but equalize the field and the racing is better and almost every car on the track has a shot at winning a race.

    Minibuggy.net is proof that there is a passion for little cars and how much fun they are.
    The current little car is the Rhino. Huge numbers of $25,000+ Rhinos are showing up and racing. Talk about slow! But the guys love 'em.
    How long is it going to be before these guys are ready to go FASTER!

    Here is an example of rules for the minidwarfs http://www.vradwarfs.com/Rules.htm They are pretty specific, but there is also a lot of room for "interpretation" within them.

    I cannot start a "race series" I just think its time to really push for a set of standards in order to get lites back on the scene, and I think that with a good "rule book" and one or 2 sponsoring tracks lites could make a comeback.
    Reply With Quote
     

  10. Collapse Details
    Re: Should builders follow certain class rules?
    #10
    Senior Member
    Join Date
    Sep 2006
    Location
    Groves, Texas
    Posts
    994
    Default
    With a loose set of rules like you propose,and i support, every builder will benifit *because #1 buggy will be safer #2 buggy will be able to race or not.#3 the next owner could race or not(better resale)#4 more parts availabilty because of simularity #5 more people working on improving same general class/size/usage buggies. Still different but much the same ( like Ford& Chevrolet are different but can still race )
    Reply With Quote
     

Page 1 of 9 1 2 3 ... LastLast

Bookmarks

Posting Permissions

  • You may not post new threads
  • You may not post replies
  • You may not post attachments
  • You may not edit your posts
  •