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welder_greg
05-12-2008, 06:48 PM
I am new to these forums and I am currently building a 2 seat mid engine ecotech buggy. The main cabin
is a design by graber cars, called the La Bala. The La Bala is MR2 based street/track car that weighs in at
1400 lbs. The whole key to my build is keeping my car under 1300 lbs.
This is new and different so I wanted to see what everyone thinks. I also thought that the La Bala website
(grabercars.com) would be a good resource to all those building a buggy from scratch.
Im sure I will be on here soon looking for answers and ideas!

yoshi
05-12-2008, 08:00 PM
I am new to these forums and I am currently building a 2 seat mid engine ecotech buggy. The main cabin
is a design by graber cars, called the La Bala. The La Bala is MR2 based street/track car that weighs in at
1400 lbs. The whole key to my build is keeping my car under 1300 lbs.
This is new and different so I wanted to see what everyone thinks. I also thought that the La Bala website
(grabercars.com) would be a good resource to all those building a buggy from scratch.
Im sure I will be on here soon looking for answers and ideas!Been following that site for years, pretty cool stuff..

Did he design the front suspension or did you? *Kingpin inclination is off..

masterfabr
05-12-2008, 08:23 PM
Here we go again and again and again and........... [smilie=biggrin.gif]

welder_greg
05-12-2008, 08:45 PM
[quote="welder_greg\";p=\"70804":1ufbufhz]I am new to these forums and I am currently building a 2 seat mid engine ecotech buggy. The main cabin
is a design by graber cars, called the La Bala. The La Bala is MR2 based street/track car that weighs in at
1400 lbs. The whole key to my build is keeping my car under 1300 lbs.
This is new and different so I wanted to see what everyone thinks. I also thought that the La Bala website
(grabercars.com) would be a good resource to all those building a buggy from scratch.
Im sure I will be on here soon looking for answers and ideas!Been following that site for years, pretty cool stuff..

Did he design the front suspension or did you? *Kingpin inclination is off..[/quote:1ufbufhz]

He mentioned that he knew you! Ive been on your site quite often because I am new
to building these cars, you guys do some amazing work over there. anyways...
He helped me with some of it, but I just went about it blindfolded. I talked to him about that
and hes going to look into how we can set it up properly. Like I said, im new to all of this
and just doing it between work and school. Thanks for pointing that out though! Ill start researching
it!

welder_greg
05-12-2008, 08:47 PM
Here we go again and again and again and........... [smilie=biggrin.gif]
Lol, I dont understand what that is supposed to mean? *[smilie=banghead.gif]

yoshi
05-12-2008, 09:33 PM
He mentioned that he knew you! What brought my name up, he wasn't using a transworks reverse unit, was he? lol

masterfabr
05-13-2008, 05:54 AM
[quote="masterfabr\";p=\"70817":17s2bl8g]Here we go again and again and again and........... [smilie=biggrin.gif]
Lol, I dont understand what that is supposed to mean? *[smilie=banghead.gif][/quote:17s2bl8g]Just that KPI is discussed OFTEN here.

yoshi
05-13-2008, 06:43 AM
[quote="welder_greg\";p=\"70822":3ax263kb][quote="masterfabr\";p=\"70817":3ax263kb]Here we go again and again and again and........... [smilie=biggrin.gif]
Lol, I dont understand what that is supposed to mean? *[smilie=banghead.gif][/quote:3ax263kb]Just that KPI is discussed OFTEN here.[/quote:3ax263kb]Not really a debated topic though, everyone always agrees it needs to hit the ground at the center of the tire, or pretty close for some some desired scrub, just not straight up and down..,

masterfabr
05-13-2008, 06:50 AM
Yep.

welder_greg
05-13-2008, 08:59 AM
[quote="welder_greg\";p=\"70821":28o1zgux]
He mentioned that he knew you! What brought my name up, he wasn't using a transworks reverse unit, was he? lol[/quote:28o1zgux]

No hes not using a transworks system... I had seen your car a while back and showed him the your site when I was at work... and he said he knew you! I think he was going to buy parts from you as well when he was making his car.

welder_greg
05-13-2008, 09:01 AM
[quote="masterfabr\";p=\"70843":1yjuzzm3][quote="welder_greg\";p=\"70822":1yjuzzm3][quote="masterfabr\";p=\"70817":1yjuzzm3]Here we go again and again and again and........... [smilie=biggrin.gif]
Lol, I dont understand what that is supposed to mean? *[smilie=banghead.gif][/quote:1yjuzzm3]Just that KPI is discussed OFTEN here.[/quote:1yjuzzm3]Not really a debated topic though, everyone always agrees it needs to hit the ground at the center of the tire, or pretty close for some some desired scrub, just not straight up and down..,[/quote:1yjuzzm3]

Ya, we came up with a solution... its an easy fix! i think we might go with a 1/2 pos. scrub radius! thanks.

welder_greg
05-13-2008, 09:04 AM
[quote="welder_greg\";p=\"70822":1ksd4yih][quote="masterfabr\";p=\"70817":1ksd4yih]Here we go again and again and again and........... [smilie=biggrin.gif]
Lol, I dont understand what that is supposed to mean? *[smilie=banghead.gif][/quote:1ksd4yih]Just that KPI is discussed OFTEN here.[/quote:1ksd4yih]

I came to find that out fast after you guys mentioned that. its alll over these forums... are some people not setting their cars up with KPI in mind??

yoshi
05-13-2008, 09:12 AM
[quote="masterfabr\";p=\"70843":20tz8v8n][quote="welder_greg\";p=\"70822":20tz8v8n][quote="masterfabr\";p=\"70817":20tz8v8n]Here we go again and again and again and........... [smilie=biggrin.gif]
Lol, I dont understand what that is supposed to mean? *[smilie=banghead.gif][/quote:20tz8v8n]Just that KPI is discussed OFTEN here.[/quote:20tz8v8n]

I came to find that out fast after you guys mentioned that. its alll over these forums... are some people not setting their cars up with KPI in mind??[/quote:20tz8v8n]The people that don't know what their doing are, as well as some other basic mistakes that people have on their first build. *Some of us have been building rails for years and learned a lot of stuff the hard way, so now a lot of people just getting started don't have to make those same mistakes.........

yoshi
05-13-2008, 09:15 AM
[quote="yoshi\";p=\"70826":1av68g8i][quote="welder_greg\";p=\"70821":1av68g8i]
He mentioned that he knew you! What brought my name up, he wasn't using a transworks reverse unit, was he? lol[/quote:1av68g8i]

No hes not using a transworks system... I had seen your car a while back and showed him the your site when I was at work... and he said he knew you! I think he was going to buy parts from you as well when he was making his car.[/quote:1av68g8i]The transworks system was a joke, known by most of the members on this site.

I don't know if he bought anything from me or not. I sell a lot of stuff, and was surprised at how many calls I get from people doing street cars. Soon as they offer it, i'm buying a fiberglass body for the GTM super car, then i'm gonna build my own tube chasss with a turbo busa and reverse diff.. *Right now they only sell a kit with a chassis for 20k and I don't want anything other than the body, lights, dash and windshield....

masterfabr
05-13-2008, 09:18 AM
Bottom line is that there are MANY variables to be considered in a front suspension design.You MUST also understand how one element affects the others. Learn as much as you can before you "go it alone" There is a LOT to know.Do a search here.My suggestion is to read ALL of the posts about front ends for a good start.THEN ask LOTS of questions. [smilie=biggrin.gif]

welder_greg
05-13-2008, 09:26 AM
Bottom line is that there are MANY variables to be considered in a front suspension design.You MUST also understand how one element affects the others. Learn as much as you can before you "go it alone" There is a LOT to know.Do a search here.My suggestion is to read ALL of the posts about front ends for a good start.THEN ask LOTS of questions. [smilie=biggrin.gif]
well i learn best by trial and error, now that ive made that error ive been digging into it and reading up on these forums! Now i did consider my caster, camber, etc... I just was unfamiliar with KPI. seems like i can learn alot from these forums!

masterfabr
05-13-2008, 09:28 AM
We all can! [smilie=biggrin.gif]

welder_greg
05-13-2008, 09:35 AM
[quote="welder_greg\";p=\"70859":1fv2xoma][quote="yoshi\";p=\"70826":1fv2xoma][quote="welder_greg\";p=\"70821":1fv2xoma]
He mentioned that he knew you! What brought my name up, he wasn't using a transworks reverse unit, was he? lol[/quote:1fv2xoma]

No hes not using a transworks system... I had seen your car a while back and showed him the your site when I was at work... and he said he knew you! I think he was going to buy parts from you as well when he was making his car.[/quote:1fv2xoma]The transworks system was a joke, known by most of the members on this site.

I don't know if he bought anything from me or not. I sell a lot of stuff, and was surprised at how many calls I get from people doing street cars. Soon as they offer it, i'm buying a fiberglass body for the GTM super car, then i'm gonna build my own tube chasss with a turbo busa and reverse diff.. *Right now they only sell a kit with a chassis for 20k and I don't want anything other than the body, lights, dash and windshield....[/quote:1fv2xoma]

Ya i read up on these forums about their set up!! seems like they just have trouble putting them together properly lol!!! i can see youve had your experience with these!!!
busa's in a street car seems to be an expanding market, sounds killer! Graber had a guy building one of his cars, in which he was going to utilize two busa motors!!!!... long story short his shop burnt down when he was halfway done with his project... lost his two busa's, chassis, some other bikes and cars, tools, everything... personally i would probably cry! it was unfortunate!
But hey if you get started on that and find the body without buying the chassis post some pics!

yoshi
05-13-2008, 09:43 AM
busa's in a street car seems to be an expanding market, sounds killer! Graber had a guy building one of his cars, in which he was going to utilize two busa motors!!!!... long story short his shop burnt down when he was halfway done with his project... lost his two busa's, chassis, some other bikes and cars, tools, everything... personally i would probably cry! it was unfortunate!
But hey if you get started on that and find the body without buying the chassis post some pics!

A lot of people are looking into running *Busa V8's instead of 2 busa motors. *They weigh 200 pounds, put out 400 hp, and have 245 foot pounds of torque as a stock configuration, much more with upgrades or a turbo. *They are extremely expensive though, around 30k, but i've been talking with my machinist about building our own busa V8 for a lot cheaper that uses more of the busa parts....
http://www.h1v8.com/page/page/1562068.htm

welder_greg
05-13-2008, 10:20 AM
[quote="welder_greg\";p=\"70872":20h6dhkl]
busa's in a street car seems to be an expanding market, sounds killer! Graber had a guy building one of his cars, in which he was going to utilize two busa motors!!!!... long story short his shop burnt down when he was halfway done with his project... lost his two busa's, chassis, some other bikes and cars, tools, everything... personally i would probably cry! it was unfortunate!
But hey if you get started on that and find the body without buying the chassis post some pics!

A lot of people are looking into running *Busa V8's instead of 2 busa motors. *They weigh 200 pounds, put out 400 hp, and have 245 foot pounds of torque as a stock configuration, much more with upgrades or a turbo. *They are extremely expensive though, around 30k, but i've been talking with my machinist about building our own busa V8 for a lot cheaper that uses more of the busa parts....
http://www.h1v8.com/page/page/1562068.htm[/quote:20h6dhkl]
Wow, I had no idea about this!!! that is just insane! but 30k??? i dont know about that since my car is less than half that price all together lol! mabe in 2 years when im done with college ill build something with one of those in it! haha

yoshi
05-13-2008, 10:29 AM
Wow, I had no idea about this!!! that is just insane! but 30k??? i dont know about that since my car is less than half that price all together lol! mabe in 2 years when im done with college ill build something with one of those in it! hahaThey use to be 50k+.........

K-fab
05-13-2008, 10:35 AM
Now i did consider my caster, camber, etc... I just was unfamiliar with KPI. seems like i can learn alot from these forums!A lot... * not alot. [smilie=ashamed.gif]
Yea, I had to. *It's my job! *[smilie=blowkiss.gif]
Hell, even Yoshi spells it right now! *[smilie=bow.gif]

As you're discovering, each aspect of the suspension system works in concert with all the others.

You have to get things like camber, caster, KPI, scrub radius (which will change with tire diameter, width and rim offset), *rake (for those running it), toe in/out, bump steer and ackerman all figured out. *Then you have to make it all work at ride height - which can vary depending on what the vehicle's being used for.

In "general", if you can get your system set up so that you have somewhere between 3-6 degrees of caster, 1-3 degrees of camber (with emphasis on higher numbers at droop) usually about 1/8" toe in/out (will depend on rear end setup sometimes), scrub radius of .25 to .75 or so, all at ride height, you'll be close to what's needed. *

Like I said "General", not specific in any shape or form.

You can take two cars that are identical and two different drivers and the drivers will set up the cars to taste (change camber/caster,etc), yet the cars will still be matched in performance (saying the drivers are too) so there are no real "correct" settings.

yoshi
05-13-2008, 10:43 AM
so there are no real "correct" settings.But there IS an incorrect setting, lol......

K-fab
05-13-2008, 10:44 AM
But there IS an incorrect setting, lol...... [smilie=bow.gif] LOL!!!

masterfabr
05-13-2008, 10:47 AM
He'll have to sell a ton of them at 30K just to break even.Sounds like a lot but compared to other similarly "built" race engines it's really pretty cheap.I got 2 drag motors with more than that in parts alone.

welder_greg
05-13-2008, 11:15 AM
He'll have to sell a ton of them at 30K just to break even.Sounds like a lot but compared to other similarly "built" race engines it's really pretty cheap.I got 2 drag motors with more than that in parts alone.
I believe it! I have a freind with WELL over 40k into his motor! but he is running a class 1 car... im just playing in the desert/dunes on a budget!