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View Full Version : Power Steering.... Any one done it



MrDiesel
02-05-2008, 09:53 AM
I was looking around on Yamaha's website and was reading about their new power steering and it got be thinking has any one used the new power steering system of the Grizzly on a buggy? would it even work. If it works right it could let some one run a lot more caster and have better high speed tracking while not having to man handle the steering wheel to turn.

yoshi
02-05-2008, 10:10 AM
I'm putting power steering and an alternator on a current busa car. *The power steering an alternator are fro ma full size car though, not a quad...

MrDiesel
02-05-2008, 10:16 AM
Very cool! like to see how that works out. hey just another question for you on one of you cars you have a Flex plate and a Starter mounted on the Center section what's that about?

plkracer
02-05-2008, 10:19 AM
It's the most ingenious way to have reverse, at the cost of ground clearance though.

MrDiesel
02-05-2008, 10:35 AM
Oh no shit, i never thought about it being for rev! very very cool! i have to give those guys my props. so far every idea that i have had they have done already. air bags. power steering...... its almost like they know what they are doing! lol jk Sinister is my hero!

yoshi
02-05-2008, 11:02 AM
It's the most ingenious way to have reverse, at the cost of ground clearance though.nope, if you look close, the sprocket and the flywheel are both above the frame. *You could get a lower gear ratio if you built a jacksaft and mounted a smaller flywheel on the upper shaft, opposite the input shaft for the chain....

bdkw1
02-05-2008, 12:56 PM
I was in the same bind as everybody else on the P/S. I was contemplating doing something like what Yoshi has, but then I found [url=http://cgi.ebay.com/ebaymotors/ws/eBayISAPI.dll?ViewItem&viewitem=&item=190188401158:3gmtob08]this[/url:3gmtob08].

Since the Wing motor has a really large alternator, this should be feasible. Now I just have to figure out how to bypass some of the electrics to make it work. I tried just putting power to it to see if it would operate in a default mode, but no go so far.


Any body know someone that works a Delphi...........

What gave Me the [url=http://www.flamingriver.com/index.cfm/page/ptype=results/category_id=210/home_id=210/mode=cat/cat210.htm:3gmtob08]idea[/url:3gmtob08] *Just a little out of My price range, especially for something I can get most of delivered to My door for 50$........ They also use an older unit without the on-board controller. They're is a guy in England making dummy box's for the Vuxhaul ones but it's a different model........

I think this is the future of P/S for MC power cars.

yoshi
02-05-2008, 04:14 PM
I was in the same bind as everybody else on the P/S. I was contemplating doing something like what Yoshi has, but then I found [url=http://cgi.ebay.com/ebaymotors/ws/eBayISAPI.dll?ViewItem&viewitem=&item=190188401158:39gx1h7i]this[/url:39gx1h7i].

Since the Wing motor has a really large alternator, this should be feasible. Now I just have to figure out how to bypass some of the electrics to make it work. I tried just putting power to it to see if it would operate in a default mode, but no go so far.


Any body know someone that works a Delphi...........

What gave Me the [url=http://www.flamingriver.com/index.cfm/page/ptype=results/category_id=210/home_id=210/mode=cat/cat210.htm:39gx1h7i]idea[/url:39gx1h7i] *Just a little out of My price range, especially for something I can get most of delivered to My door for 50$........ They also use an older unit without the on-board controller. They're is a guy in England making dummy box's for the Vuxhaul ones but it's a different model........

I think this is the future of P/S for MC power cars.

I checked into the flaming river pumps, but they coast more than the standard power steering. *I couldn't find any info on the auto power steering stuff, but I will check into the one listed on ebay...

masterfabr
02-05-2008, 04:24 PM
Just curious but have you any info on how much torque it takes to turn the pump and alternator running directly off the crank at idle and 10K? I'd think it would be pretty substantial.

plkracer
02-05-2008, 04:33 PM
I bet at idle and with a 60 amp draw it will lug it pretty hard. My cousin has some kc's on an isuzu car and it would slowly kill the engine at idle when they were all on.

masterfabr
02-05-2008, 04:39 PM
That's what I was wondering about. I really like the busas but they are not torque monsters at low rpm's.I could be wrong but I'm betting that pump is quite the torque parasite.And an alternator will suck up quite a few lb.ft. at full output.I like the idea of the power steering but have my reservations about it on a busa also.

yoshi
02-05-2008, 04:47 PM
Just curious but have you any info on how much torque it takes to turn the pump and alternator running directly off the crank at idle and 10K? I'd think it would be pretty substantial.Not worried about it. *The rail i'm building s getting a 1400 kit and every other internal upgrade you can think of. It will putting around 250 hp to the rear wheels and a boat load more torque, especially mid and low end. *I will do a dyno break in with an engine stand, so i'll have him run the numbers with and without the components so I can see the exact draw at any rpm from using the units.........

yoshi
02-05-2008, 04:54 PM
and i'll be more than happy to post the dyno results for the engine for both sets of numbers. *I'm actually have 2 motors built the exact same way at the same time right now, with all the same parts, the only difference is one will have power steering and an alternator, the other won't, so i'll have the dyno numbers to compare side by side as well...

nutz4sand
02-05-2008, 05:51 PM
Just in case anyone cares or wants to look into it the Subaru XT6 cars had a 12 volt powersteering pump (Its mounted above the engine near the hood and firewall.) These had a system that turned them on when needed. Might be something to look at if you do not want to or do not have a power tap off the motor. Bill

busasandrail
02-05-2008, 06:13 PM
[quote="masterfabr\";p=\"60554":22719yxw]Just curious but have you any info on how much torque it takes to turn the pump and alternator running directly off the crank at idle and 10K? I'd think it would be pretty substantial.Not worried about it. *The rail i'm building s getting a 1400 kit and every other internal upgrade you can think of. It will putting around 250 hp to the rear wheels and a boat load more torque, especially mid and low end. *I will do a dyno break in with an engine stand, so i'll have him run the numbers with and without the components so I can see the exact draw at any rpm from using the units.........[/quote:22719yxw]

I'm pretty curious also...I bet the torque numbers at idle are really close between a stock motor and a built motor, and I would lean towards the stock motor to have more. Either way it will be intresting to see.

masterfabr
02-05-2008, 06:24 PM
Uh,that's not what he said.You might want to reread it.

yoshi
02-05-2008, 06:43 PM
been doing some reading, and so far best I can tell is you use less than 1 hp when not turning with a power steering pump installed, and about 5 hp when it's in use. *This doesn't seem that bad to me, but again, i'll know for sure after the dyno results are available for the motors.....

masterfabr
02-05-2008, 06:47 PM
Yeah, I'm seriously interested. Whens the dyno session?

yoshi
02-05-2008, 06:51 PM
I won't be turning at idle, so 1 hp taken down low seems really good to me, when the 5 hp pull kicks in, the rpms will be up for driving and turning..

yoshi
02-05-2008, 06:53 PM
Yeah, I'm seriously interested. Whens the dyno session?He's building both of the motors right now, and i'm building a stand to hold the motor and a rear wheel so he can do the break in runs and map them. *I'm also dropping the transmission gears off at the cryo treatment center this week, and they should be done in time for the motor to be put back together without holding it up, but I don't know exactly when it will be ready, i'm thinking a couple weeks? *I am just as anxious as you, so I will post the dyno numbers in my log the day I have them

masterfabr
02-05-2008, 06:59 PM
Something I just thought about.Are you going to be able to load the pump at idle and max rpm to see what the effect is? Are you going to run the alternator at full output while testing also?

yoshi
02-05-2008, 07:07 PM
Something I just thought about.Are you going to be able to load the pump at idle and max rpm to see what the effect is? Are you going to run the alternator at full output while testing also?

I was thinking I need to set the power steering pump up for the dyno run with a steering wheel so we can do a couple pulls with no load, then wheel cranked to the right or left with some kind of resistance, and maybe my light bar? *It may be more work than I feel like doing for the break in on the dyno, so I may need to get the whole car assembled and run it on a car dyno with all the lights on, then pull of the belt connecting the alternator and power steering pump and run it that way to compare numbers.

I think the biggest concern is load at idle, and since there is only a 1 hp draw at idle, It will be well above that to take off and even turn....

masterfabr
02-05-2008, 07:18 PM
There will always be the times you turn the wheel at idle.Nearly full load at idle is what I'm concerned about. And then the alternator will be a considerable load by itself.Time will tell .

yoshi
02-05-2008, 07:32 PM
Time will tell .agreed, this setup hasn't been done before to my knowledge, so all we can do is try. *I do feel better about the concept with the amount of hp and torque the motor will be putting out.


I can't recall ever turning while at idle. *I don't see why anyone would sit and crank the wheel back and forth without giving the motor any gas, and even a little gas jumps you to 4k, even more when you are taking off..

yoshi
02-05-2008, 07:41 PM
you do make some good points master, if it does turn out that there is excessive load on the motor at engine idle while cranking the wheel, I will have to make it clear to people running the power steering setup that they are not to turn the wheel at idle. *This shouldn't be hard to get use to, as there is no need to turn the wheel when your not moving, but if it's a problem it would be something that owners would need to be aware of as a side effect of running a power steering setup off the motor like this. *Running the unit will not hurt the motor at idle, only loading it IF it is overloaded...

masterfabr
02-05-2008, 07:49 PM
The most it would do is kill the motor. I think if you'd think about it there are many times you will be loading the pump at idle or near it.Not trying to be - about this.I'd like to see it work out as I think the power steering will be very nice.I'll use it on mine if your guinea pig works. [smilie=biggrin.gif]

yoshi
02-05-2008, 08:11 PM
One other thing is that the max rpm of the pump is less than half of what the motor produces, so he had to gear the pump down quite a bit, which leads me to think that the power steering really won't kick in much unless you get the rpms up a little, so there might be a failsafe built in with the basic design to keep the rpms down. *In other words, sitting at idle, the power steering may not even work good if at all, but raise the rpms over 4 or 5k and the power steering will start to kick in. *I really have know idea the specifics of how that works as far as when the pump kicks in and at what rpm, but I will do some more research tomorrow on the unit and see what I can come up with...

Bugpac
02-05-2008, 08:24 PM
cant see this setup putting much load on the engine at anytime, pretty light weight car here...Not like grandmas station wagon...

yoshi
02-05-2008, 08:33 PM
cant see this setup putting much load on the engine at anytime, pretty light weight car here...Not like grandmas station wagon...that's what i'm thinking, but I accept the possibility that there may be some issues until I get some literature telling me otherwise, which will begin tomorrow. *I'm thinking if it works on a quad, it will work on a busa motor, the power steering unit is smaller than a can of pop.


After a little more reading just now, there are some people saying there is no hp loss while going straight, so it's between zero and 1hp so far in that dept, and the other numbers for total hp loss for bigger units on bigger cars that really need some power to turn bigger wheels on street are between 1-1/2 and 5 hp while in use....

Bugpac
02-05-2008, 08:46 PM
Whos crying about 5 hp? You cant have top performance and luxury..

yoshi
02-05-2008, 08:55 PM
Whos crying about 5 hp? You cant have top performance and luxury..I don't think master is worried about the hp loss, but the load at idle, which if enough at low rpm's could kill the motor, but it seems like worse case senerio, if people are told not to turn the wheel back and forth while at a dead stop with their foot off the gas and at idle, I think the advantages would far outweigh that, IF there is a problem, which there may not be, master just pointed out a possible load at idle and altho he may be correct, no-one knows for sure just yet...

Bugpac
02-05-2008, 09:16 PM
the busa wont adjust the rpms if load is put forth? some cars do that, if you load the motor by turning the wheel etc, the engine compensates...

plkracer
02-05-2008, 09:27 PM
I doubt it. It doesn't sense load and it doesn't electronically control the throttle.

bdkw1
02-05-2008, 10:39 PM
Never mind......

boilermaker
02-06-2008, 01:04 AM
If its EFI, won't it hold idle speed and therfore not die with a little added load. I'm glad that somebody is doing this, power steering, because i'll probable need it on my car, when i build it that is.

plkracer
02-06-2008, 01:25 AM
It can't do anything besides richen or lean the mixture, or maybe change the timing.

yoshi
02-06-2008, 03:10 AM
It can't do anything besides richen or lean the mixture, or maybe change the timing.I am having the motors custom mapped on the dyno, so now that you mention it, I suppose I could have it mapped to handle the loads at idle IF there is a problem?

masterfabr
02-06-2008, 05:52 AM
The busa is efi but there is no provision for electronic idle speed control Unless you go aftermarket there is also no way to alter timing map either.The only input to the efi is atmospheric pressure and intake air temperature.Pretty primitive compared to many auto efi's.There is no O2 sensor even.The efi map is controlled by throtthe position,IAT, baro pressure and rpm. Throw a load to the engine at idle and I'm afraid the engine will just die without raising the idle rpm s significantly.I hope it works but as I said only time will tell.I'm also glad someone elses dime is paying for this experiment. [smilie=biggrin.gif] I had thought about doing the exact thing yoshi is but had too many doubts to follow through.

MrDiesel
02-06-2008, 09:30 AM
Wow all that power and a basic EFI system.... sounds like bike makers took the short road to more power. Simple Digital system makes some killer EFI systems for every thing from 1 cyl motors up to 16 cyls. it would be really easy to adj for a small load like that. i even think that with the motor just at idle it should die with a small 5hp load you could just raise the idle a little bit.

busasandrail
02-06-2008, 09:44 AM
Raising the idle might help some, I have noticed that when my fans kick on the idle does drop some. So depending on the load applied it, it might affect the idle speed more then one would think. Cant wait to see how it works...... [smilie=biggrin.gif]

yoshi
02-06-2008, 10:05 AM
Raising the idle might help some, I have noticed that when my fans kick on the idle does drop some. So depending on the load applied it, it might affect the idle speed more then one would think. Cant wait to see how it works...... [smilie=biggrin.gif]kicking the idel up may not be a bad idea. *But again, it pulls between zero and 1 hp when not being used, so when your not moving, not turning the wheel should effect the rpm's. *I'm fixing to start calling to get more info...

masterfabr
02-06-2008, 11:04 AM
If you go turbo on the second one and it is an 08 then you will definitely want to use better rods and lower compression t'bo pistons.That will kill additional idle area torque.You may be creating a nightmare for yourself there expense wise. Better choice would be an 07 or earlier.If you plan to seriously boost Say over 12#'s or so)one of the earlier ones you should at least use a spacer to lower the compression.Either way you WILL lose some of the stock torque below boost.Actually a fairly significant amount.I'm just really concerned with the added effect of the alternator load (which is fairly large at full load) and the PS pump.

yoshi
02-06-2008, 12:48 PM
If you go turbo on the second one and it is an 08 then you will definitely want to use better rods and lower compression t'bo pistons.That will kill additional idle area torque.You may be creating a nightmare for yourself there expense wise. Better choice would be an 07 or earlier.If you plan to seriously boost Say over 12#'s or so)one of the earlier ones you should at least use a spacer to lower the compression.Either way you WILL lose some of the stock torque below boost.Actually a fairly significant amount.I'm just really concerned with the added effect of the alternator load (which is fairly large at full load) and the PS pump. *If a customer wants a turbo, they can do that on their own, I don't believe i'll ever offer a turbo setup, especially since I can get them into motor work, with beefed up internal components, for roughly the same cost as the basic turbo putting the same hp numbers to the ground. *And from what i've been told, putting a turbo on the 08 busa, with a 12:1 ratio, is prob. not the smartest idea, so like you said, they would need pistons for a lower compression ratio and stronger rods......

masterfabr
02-06-2008, 01:12 PM
On GD.com you said you were t'boing one .What gives?

masterfabr
02-06-2008, 01:17 PM
[smilie=haha2.gif] * The same power as a turbo busa? [smilie=rofl.gif] *[smilie=lmao.gif] In your dreams! [smilie=lmao.gif]

busasandrail
02-06-2008, 01:40 PM
He might be able to get within 20 or 30 hp of a turbo system.....But dollar for dollar your better off getting a turbo especially if your looking for break neck speed and hp. Now on the other hand there is a lot to be said about a big bore motor in the dunes and around the trails, there torque numbers down low can really help you out of a jam. But really this could be a totally seperate thread.....

masterfabr
02-06-2008, 01:43 PM
First sentenence.BIG maybe.The rest I agree with but BIG BORE + TURBO =YEEHAW!!!!!! [smilie=biggrin.gif] *[smilie=blowkiss.gif]

busasandrail
02-06-2008, 01:51 PM
I lot of it will be the price point.....4500-5000 will get your 240ish hp normally asperated and from what I hear around 280ish with a turbo.....so maybe with in 40. But either way they will not be equal no way no how....

busasandrail
02-06-2008, 01:55 PM
And I agree boost and big bore equals hold the F on....some day I will put some boost to mine. Problem is, as always $$$$$$$.

Faber is yours a kit or custom....I have read about people using a stock EVO turbo setup and custom tubing which is something Ive been mulling over.

masterfabr
02-06-2008, 02:22 PM
I build my own headers and intake airbox.I use a Garrett GT25R turbo.For 10-12#'s boost a powercommander along with a rising rate fuel pressure regulator will easily take care of fuel mapping .There is a minor issue with the method but all in all is quite reliable.The other option is to use piggyback injectors for higher boost levels.A couple grand will easily get ya boosted if you are a fabber.

yoshi
02-06-2008, 02:57 PM
[smilie=haha2.gif] * The same power as a turbo busa? [smilie=rofl.gif] *[smilie=lmao.gif] In your dreams! [smilie=lmao.gif]I said the basic turbo kit, which puts about 240hp or so to the ground as a bolt on kit, anymore than that and you have to start beefing up the motor to handle it. *So for what you can get out of a stock busa in reliable hp, you can get the same with motor work for the same cost. *I realize there are 9k turbo's that are getting 800hp, but they require motor work for much over 250 hp., *but for what you can do for 5k, as far as a turbo and related accessories goes, you can get all the motor work in a more reliable setup with more low and mid torque while beefing up the internal components that are a weak link when you only add a turbo and leave the internals stock...


How much money did you have in your last turbo kit, and how much hp were you putting to the ground? *If you built your own turbo kit, how much does a comparative, off the shelf turbo kit run like what you had...

your basic turbo's are putting 240 to 260 to the ground, I will get 250 to 260 wit hthe motor work i'm doing, so that sounds pretty equal to me, only i'll have more low and mid torque, and no turbo lag...

yoshi
02-06-2008, 03:02 PM
He might be able to get within 20 or 30 hp of a turbo system.....But dollar for dollar your better off getting a turbo especially if your looking for break neck speed and hp. Now on the other hand there is a lot to be said about a big bore motor in the dunes and around the trails, there torque numbers down low can really help you out of a jam. But really this could be a totally seperate thread.....

the guy building my motors is building bikes that are outrunning turbo busa bikes at the drags, I don't think there is gonna be a huge difference between the to as far as break neck speed, but I feel that any disadvantages of the motor work are outweighed by the advantages it will produce...

busasandrail
02-06-2008, 03:23 PM
Yoshi, what is your guy that is building the motors doing to them to get 250-60 to the ground? ie, stroker crank, head work, cams, compression, etc. etc. Because if my calcs. are right that would put you at 300 at the crank. *[smilie=shocker.gif] I'm not saying its not possible, but your talking about a ton of money to get that kind of power....And the way your making it sound is that it is fairly cheap.
And my guess is that with that kind of power youll need a 24v starting setup , bigger oil cooler, big radiator, and be just a real bitch to drive and start in the dunes. Just my .02

Edit: forgot to add fuel system, injectors, and clutch work to the list.....

masterfabr
02-06-2008, 03:48 PM
[smilie=biggrin.gif]

masterfabr
02-06-2008, 03:51 PM
Boost is for real men. [smilie=mhihi.gif]

busasandrail
02-06-2008, 03:57 PM
I couldn't drive my cummins engine with out one.....its the best thing they did to the diesel motor. I can do 80 mph up hills with a fully load 20 enclosed trailer. Its too funny watching people in POS cars try to stop me from passing them......

yoshi
02-06-2008, 03:59 PM
[quote="yoshi\";p=\"60560":30fx066i][quote="masterfabr\";p=\"60554":30fx066i]Just curious but have you any info on how much torque it takes to turn the pump and alternator running directly off the crank at idle and 10K? I'd think it would be pretty substantial.Not worried about it. *The rail i'm building s getting a 1400 kit and every other internal upgrade you can think of. It will putting around 250 hp to the rear wheels and a boat load more torque, especially mid and low end. *I will do a dyno break in with an engine stand, so i'll have him run the numbers with and without the components so I can see the exact draw at any rpm from using the units.........[/quote:30fx066i]

I'm pretty curious also...I bet the torque numbers at idle are really close between a stock motor and a built motor, and I would lean towards the stock motor to have more. Either way it will be intresting to see.[/quote:30fx066i]

ok, I just talked to the builder. I got some numbers mixed up. *He gave me 3 different kits, a base kit that gets 200 to the rear wheels, the kit he is doing now that gets 225, and then another kit that he is getting 250+ from, but he said the big kit wouldn't be as reliable for a sandrail setup, and would have problems starting once hot. *So, my apologies, the kit i'm doing *will be between 220 and 230 hp, so that the rail stays reliable and doesn't have any problems starting, I made it very clear that I wanted the motor to be as reliable as stock, and he said the package i'm doing will be as long as I beefed up the cooling parts of the motor as well, which i'm doing. *I am cryofreezing the tranny gears, putting a bigger oil gear in it, building a reserve tank to get about 4 more quarts of oil, running an external oil cooler with a high flow fan, a 24"x16''x2" thick radiator, and swapping out the thermostate for a washer with a 5/8" hole. *

A base turbo kit that cost the same price will get you 230 to 240 to the rear wheels, so I will be between 5 to 15 hp less with my engine over a turbo, but I will have more low and mid torque, and all the weak links in the motor will be souped up, and it will be more reliable. *Total cost for the work is $4,900.00, which is less than what it would cost the customer to have the turbo installed, once you account for shipping to get the turbo done.

yoshi
02-06-2008, 04:10 PM
I do have a rail here right now with a motor that was built by downs engineering, and it dyno'd at 242 to the rear wheels, but, it doesn't like to start once it gets too hot, which is why I didn't want to go with the kit he has....

busasandrail
02-06-2008, 04:19 PM
Sound like what I have....high compression, 1397, head work, cams, exhaust, and power commander etc....

I have never driven a turboed sand car so I cant say what the diffs are. But IMO equal to equal hp I think I would prefer a big bore motor mostly because of the torque and instant trottle response.

But dollar to hp you'll be ahead with a turbo.....

busasandrail
02-06-2008, 04:21 PM
I do have a rail here right now with a motor that was built by downs engineering, and it dyno'd at 242 to the rear wheels, but, it doesn't like to start once it gets too hot, which is why I didn't want to go with the kit he has....

Does it have a 24v starting system? If not might be something to look it to.

masterfabr
02-06-2008, 04:40 PM
I'm not gonna get sucked into this one any further. [smilie=biggrin.gif]

yoshi
02-06-2008, 04:42 PM
[quote="yoshi\";p=\"60745":np5vxdta]I do have a rail here right now with a motor that was built by downs engineering, and it dyno'd at 242 to the rear wheels, but, it doesn't like to start once it gets too hot, which is why I didn't want to go with the kit he has....

Does it have a 24v starting system? If not might be something to look it to.[/quote:np5vxdta]I know he beefed up the charging system, and went through 3 batteries just to find one that would crank it over....


I agree that you get more bang for your buck with a turbo, but like you, I prefer the lower end torque, especially for a heavier car, and knowing that my setup is more reliable than a turbo and I won't constantly be trying to get the turbo dialed in, which I know turbo's can be very finicky in that dept. and you still have the lag to deal with....

yoshi
02-06-2008, 04:45 PM
I'm not gonna get sucked into this one any further. [smilie=biggrin.gif]each setup has advantages and disadvantages, and for me, and how my cars are built as far as weight and size, I prefer the torque advantages of the motor work car, even though the hp numbers aren't gonna match the turbo....

masterfabr
02-06-2008, 04:56 PM
Ok so I guess I will. [smilie=ashamed.gif] Properly setup there is no lag.That's why I use an R series turbo that suits the engines needs well Not too big!!!!.As for the low end torque of an engine with cams/port work *I seriously doubt that it has a speck more tq. at idle and slightly above over a turbo setup or stock. As for a docile, easy to drive, motor there is no comparison *between a turboed busa and a "built" N/A busa..The thing will crank easily when hot and start.Once you map it ,as you will also need to do for the built motor , there are no reliability issues any more than your built motor will have.Blow smoke all ya like but those are the facts. [smilie=biggrin.gif]

Bugpac
02-06-2008, 05:11 PM
turbo is for Pxxxxs, or actually i should say for men that cant build motors...They just buy shit and bolt on... [smilie=mhihi.gif]

busasandrail
02-06-2008, 05:14 PM
I know he beefed up the charging system, and went through 3 batteries just to find one that would crank it over....


It doesn't matter how big the battery is thats not the problem.....The problem is that the extra compression when hot is too much for the little starter motor to handle. Stepping up to a 24v setup will spin the motor faster and give it the abilty to turn over the big N/A motors....Busa guys do it all the time.

yoshi
02-06-2008, 05:27 PM
He might be able to get within 20 or 30 hp of a turbo system.....But dollar for dollar your better off getting a turbo especially if your looking for break neck speed and hp. Now on the other hand there is a lot to be said about a big bore motor in the dunes and around the trails, there torque numbers down low can really help you out of a jam. But really this could be a totally seperate thread.....Have you ever raced a turbo busa rail? *How did you hold up if so, and has anyone every driven with you that was in a turbo rail and said how they felt?

bdkw1
02-06-2008, 05:50 PM
and swapping out the thermostat for a washer with a 5/8" hole.

[smilie=banghead.gif] *Why does everyone want to do this? This is the worst idea ever. The only advantage to this is it builds up more block pressure and kinda helps prevent hotspot boiling. IF you have a good 25PSI cap, good flow and a large enough radiator, there is no advantage. It also robs power and if you have a radiator by-pass likes most american V-8's, it will really screw things up.

busasandrail
02-06-2008, 05:51 PM
[quote="busasandrail\";p=\"60721":3uu5qhvx]He might be able to get within 20 or 30 hp of a turbo system.....But dollar for dollar your better off getting a turbo especially if your looking for break neck speed and hp. Now on the other hand there is a lot to be said about a big bore motor in the dunes and around the trails, there torque numbers down low can really help you out of a jam. But really this could be a totally seperate thread.....Have you ever raced a turbo busa rail? *How did you hold up if so, and has anyone every driven with you that was in a turbo rail and said how they felt?[/quote:3uu5qhvx]

No and no......Friend of mine had a turbo rail (not busa) before he got his busa rail. He said that when the turbo kicked in (boost) it flat flew. And he always says he wants to do a turbo agian. Really you cant compare the two he had because they are two totally different rails (weight, size, and motors).

I have raced a stock rail to mine (equal weight and size) and didn't see that much difference maybe a length or two. I have also raced a similiarly built motor and rail to mine and agian neck and neck. *But never a turboed car.
Maybe some day.

Also here in the Oregon dunes I'm not sure how well a turbo car would do because the dunes are fairly close which wouldn't allow you to open the cars up to much.

busasandrail
02-06-2008, 06:04 PM
turbo is for Pxxxxs, or actually i should say for men that cant build motors...They just buy w00ter and bolt on... [smilie=mhihi.gif]

Bug I will have to disagree with you on this one.....Just because you use a turbo to make power doesnt make you a pxxxxs. It takes quite a bit of motor work to make a turbo motor sing like its N/A brother. True you can just bolt a system on a motor but really you can do the same to a N/A motor IMO heads, cam, and intake are not any harder to do then a turbo kit.

And you just cant build a N/A motor to equal a Turbo motor power wise.....no way no how.....now I'm talking top of the line no expense spared balls to the wall motor.

busasandrail
02-06-2008, 06:08 PM
[quote="yoshi\";p=\"60743":1tknxycp]and swapping out the thermostat for a washer with a 5/8" hole.

[smilie=banghead.gif] *Why does everyone want to do this? This is the worst idea ever. The only advantage to this is it builds up more block pressure and kinda helps prevent hotspot boiling. IF you have a good 25PSI cap, good flow and a large enough radiator, there is no advantage. It also robs power and if you have a radiator by-pass likes most american V-8's, it will really screw things up.[/quote:1tknxycp]

What is the disadvantage of doing this? I see why people might think its a good idea but what does it really hurt.

yoshi
02-06-2008, 06:10 PM
[quote="yoshi\";p=\"60743":1whybu47]and swapping out the thermostat for a washer with a 5/8" hole.

[smilie=banghead.gif] *Why does everyone want to do this? This is the worst idea ever. The only advantage to this is it builds up more block pressure and kinda helps prevent hotspot boiling. IF you have a good 25PSI cap, good flow and a large enough radiator, there is no advantage. It also robs power and if you have a radiator by-pass likes most american V-8's, it will really screw things up.[/quote:1whybu47]ok,..well I suppose you won't mind footing the bill I paid when I blew up a busa because a thermostate froze in the closed position? *Motor got hot as hell, radiator water was cold enough to stick my fingers in...... [smilie=biggrin.gif]

Bugpac
02-06-2008, 06:11 PM
Ya i know, Im a na guy myslef.... [smilie=mhihi.gif]

yoshi
02-06-2008, 06:24 PM
Also here in the Oregon dunes I'm not sure how well a turbo car would do because the dunes are fairly close which wouldn't allow you to open the cars up to much.that's kinda my thinking all together, i'm wanting a rail that can run up a hill, go throguh some corners, and slow down without lugging the motor and not having to rap it out to do so. *I think the turbo's are better for flat out racing, and wide open runs....


You said you ran a little better than a stock busa? *How much hp are you putting? *I have a dyno chart here with a stock busa that put 151hp to the rear wheels, and even a moderate 1398 kit gets you 198 hp, which should beat a stock busa by more than a couple rail lengths...

Gene
02-06-2008, 06:41 PM
All dynos are not created equally. Results are truly comparative when done on the same machine by the same technician - or so I've read.

Mine made 179 to the ground through the diff on an eddy current dyno. I'm encouraging the El Toro gang and anyone else who wants to schedule a dyno day to do that in Portland. I have tires ready to put on the cars!

Get 4 cars together and meet up with our tuner. Could be very enlightening.

busasandrail
02-06-2008, 07:29 PM
Im guessing mine has about what genes puts out.....our motors are pretty close in parts and build. Either way up to about 75 mph...it was about 1-2 lenghts. so not very much.

masterfabr
02-06-2008, 07:44 PM
turbo is for Pxxxxs, or actually i should say for men that cant build motors...They just buy w00ter and bolt on... [smilie=mhihi.gif]I got 2 N/A drag smallblocks that are 800+ HP.Poosy my arse! [smilie=biggrin.gif] I CAN make big #'s by building.I CHOOSE to turbpo the buggies.Absolutely docile,easy to drive at low rpms ,yet a fire breathing dragon on demand.Best of both worlds.Win-win ,can't lose deal. [smilie=banghead.gif]

masterfabr
02-06-2008, 07:54 PM
[quote="bdkw1\";p=\"60764":1qovbrs4][quote="yoshi\";p=\"60743":1qovbrs4]and swapping out the thermostat for a washer with a 5/8" hole.

[smilie=banghead.gif] *Why does everyone want to do this? This is the worst idea ever. The only advantage to this is it builds up more block pressure and kinda helps prevent hotspot boiling. IF you have a good 25PSI cap, good flow and a large enough radiator, there is no advantage. It also robs power and if you have a radiator by-pass likes most american V-8's, it will really screw things up.[/quote:1qovbrs4]

What is the disadvantage of doing this? I see why people might think its a good idea but what does it really hurt.[/quote:1qovbrs4]It gives no coolant temp control is the reason it's a bad idea.One of the parameters monitored by the ECU is coolant temp.You need a stable coolant temp that accurately indicates the running condition of the engine for proper fueling.It will take longer to warm to operating temp and in cold weather it may never reach an effecient engine temp.I agree tho that a busa needs more coolant flow at low rpms.Most of the guys drill 3- 3/16" holes in the thermostat. Allows more flow but still regulates temp.

bdkw1
02-06-2008, 11:06 PM
It gives no coolant temp control is the reason it's a bad idea.One of the parameters monitored by the ECU is coolant temp.You need a stable coolant temp that accurately indicates the running condition of the engine for proper fueling.It will take longer to warm to operating temp and in cold weather it may never reach an effecient engine temp.I agree tho that a busa needs more coolant flow at low rpms.Most of the guys drill 3- 3/16" holes in the thermostat. Allows more flow but still regulates temp.

Exactly, also on really hot days it will restrict flow enough to cuase problems also. If you have a bypass circut like on a V8, almost half of your coolant flow will be circulating around the motor without ever hitting the radiator. If you have your temp sensor in the motor before the thermostst where it should be, you'll know if you have a problem long before the motor goes. With a drilled T-stat, it does take longer to heat up but if your running electric fans it's usually not a problem. I don't know if [url=http://www.stewartcomponents.net/Merchant2/merchant.mvc?Screen=PROD&Product_Code=304&Category_Code=therm:6rbxaqe6]Robert Shaw[/url:6rbxaqe6] makes motorcycle T-stats, but their big umbella style units are the only ones I will use...... With the holes drilled in them.......


Wait, what was this thread about *[smilie=blink.gif]

Bugpac
02-07-2008, 07:29 AM
[quote="Bugpac\";p=\"60757":1llqeszz]turbo is for Pxxxxs, or actually i should say for men that cant build motors...They just buy w00ter and bolt on... [smilie=mhihi.gif]I got 2 N/A drag smallblocks that are 800+ HP.Poosy my arse! [smilie=biggrin.gif] I CAN make big #'s by building.I CHOOSE to turbpo the buggies.Absolutely docile,easy to drive at low rpms ,yet a fire breathing dragon on demand.Best of both worlds.Win-win ,can't lose deal. [smilie=banghead.gif][/quote:1llqeszz]

Ya, i guess for you you need to be the fastest on flat ground, as we all know you wont be doing any jumping.... [smilie=mhihi.gif]

masterfabr
02-07-2008, 01:05 PM
Not much traction in the air. [smilie=banghead.gif] *[smilie=biggrin.gif] Fastest way between 2 points is a straight line with those expensive tires on the ground.Not some slowing down arc up in the air. DUH! [smilie=lmao.gif]

yoshi
02-07-2008, 01:30 PM
Not much traction in the air. [smilie=banghead.gif] *[smilie=biggrin.gif] Fastest way between 2 points is a straight line with those expensive tires on the ground.Not some slowing down arc up in the air. DUH! [smilie=lmao.gif]bumps slow you down to man, I think you should stick to street cars down a smooth drag strip, since a to b as fast as possible is your only goal, lol......

masterfabr
02-07-2008, 02:26 PM
What????? You mean with all that tavel you get slowed down in the whoops? [smilie=mhihi.gif]Need some shock tuning? *Is there any other way to get from A to B than as fast as you can? [smilie=biggrin.gif] Hell,all I know is go and stop. [smilie=rofl.gif] *Before anyone gets the idea this is starting to be a poofest let me say that we are just messing with each other.This ain't serious. [smilie=biggrin.gif]

yoshi
02-07-2008, 02:29 PM
What????? You mean with all that tavel you get slowed down in the whoops? [smilie=mhihi.gif]Need some shock tuning? *Is there any other way to get from A to B than as fast as you can? [smilie=biggrin.gif] Hell,all I know is go and stop. [smilie=rofl.gif] *Before anyone gets the idea this is starting to be a poofest let me say that we are just messing with each other.This ain't serious. [smilie=biggrin.gif]lol,..everyone has their own driving style, I love jumps and whoops, hills and bowls, you like flat out balls to the wall running...

masterfabr
02-07-2008, 02:34 PM
Yeah, you're right it all depends what you love.I NEED acceleration or I just get flat out bored.

masterfabr
02-07-2008, 06:22 PM
Back to the turbo/built thing.Ever checked the price of C12 compared to pump gas lately?I run prem pump gas.I can buy that ANYWHERE night and day.What ya gonna use on those 250 hp built ones? * * * Just another thing to consider.

plkracer
02-07-2008, 06:27 PM
Loves in Yuma has race gas for only 5.69 a gallon. That was last summer though...
BTW, emphasize ONLY. lol

masterfabr
02-07-2008, 06:35 PM
Only. [smilie=biggrin.gif]

yoshi
02-07-2008, 08:41 PM
Back to the turbo/built thing.Ever checked the price of C12 compared to pump gas lately?I run prem pump gas.I can buy that ANYWHERE night and day.What ya gonna use on those 250 hp built ones? * * * Just another thing to consider.225 hp, and it runs on pump gas....

masterfabr
02-07-2008, 08:54 PM
Uh huh.You said I think 240 or so at the wheels.300 or so at the crank. Pump gas huh.

masterfabr
02-07-2008, 08:59 PM
[
your basic turbo's are putting 240 to 260 to the ground, I will get 250 to 260 wit hthe motor work i'm doing, so that sounds pretty equal to me, only i'll have more low and mid torque, and no turbo lag... Um ,why, yes! I think you actually said250-260 to the ground.Uh,yep,I believe you did. [smilie=biggrin.gif]

masterfabr
02-07-2008, 09:01 PM
Pump gas. [smilie=lmao.gif]

plkracer
02-07-2008, 09:03 PM
Lol, three posts in a row....

Gene
02-07-2008, 09:16 PM
[smilie=ext_tease.gif] *[smilie=gun_bash.gif] *[smilie=haha.gif] *[smilie=poked.gif] *[smilie=non_banana1.gif] *[smilie=non_banana2.gif] *[smilie=oops.gif] *[smilie=eeek.gif] *[smilie=evilgrin.gif]

yoshi
02-07-2008, 09:19 PM
Uh huh.You said I think 240 or so at the wheels.300 or so at the crank. Pump gas huh.go back and read the bottom of page 4....

masterfabr
02-07-2008, 09:32 PM
nope,don't need to,I just quoted your exact words that basically started this . [smilie=blowkiss.gif]

masterfabr
02-07-2008, 09:34 PM
Lol, three posts in a row....Gotta get that post count up ya know! [smilie=blush.gif]

yoshi
02-07-2008, 10:42 PM
nope,don't need to,I just quoted your exact words that basically started this . [smilie=blowkiss.gif]I corrected my info 3 pages ago........

busasandrail
02-07-2008, 10:51 PM
Yoshi what compression you going to be running?

yoshi
02-07-2008, 10:54 PM
Yoshi what compression you going to be running?I don't remember, 11 something:1, lol.....

I ain't gonna lie, I don't know a bunch about motor work, I just said I want the best you can do that is still reliable and runs on pump gas, and wanting any cooling or shifting upgrades while it was apart and he said no problem, then worked me up a package and I dropped off 2 motors and said "make it so number one..."

busasandrail
02-07-2008, 10:56 PM
I was told anything over 12 to 1 and youll be pushing the envelope of pump gas.

yoshi
02-07-2008, 10:58 PM
I was told anything over 12 to 1 and youll be pushing the envelope of pump gas.i'm pretty sure it is 11 something:1, he said the same thing about pushing it. *I didn't want to run race fuel, I wanted a good reliable motor with more low and mid torque.........

busasandrail
02-07-2008, 11:07 PM
I run mine at 12 to 1 give or take and use super w/o any problems....

And you builder might be a little optimistic with the hp numbers if he is only running 11 to 1...

plkracer
02-07-2008, 11:47 PM
Why can the little bikes run 13.5 to one? Is that able with the smaller piston?

masterfabr
02-08-2008, 06:11 AM
As for your correcting your info yoshi,I don't think so.All you have done is try to blow smoke by quoting all kind of numbers.It is obvious that yoshi has no idea what he will be able to accomplish with these "built" motors.You won't gain the kind of hp that he is talking about by lowering the compression on the N/A engines. Won't happen. A stock busa is 12:1 to start with.And yes you can and should run pump gas on the stocker and a plain ol' 1397 kit install.There is no provision for retarding the timing that will be necessary to reliably allow higher compression with pump gas tho.The addition of cams and port work to get those numbers will not increase low end tq.#'s.They will be possibly the same (or very close)as stockwith the 1397 kit and cams.The increased hp/tq rpm range WILL be raised not lowered.Hence ,back to the original question:will the engine be able to cope with the aadded load of the alternator and ps pump at idle.I still have no real idea and I am anxiously awaiting the results since I would also like to do the same. *Don't get me wrong,the 1397 will make more hp than stock for sure but not the 250-260 you did to say you would have to the GROUND.Building motors of any kind is my area of *expertise.I KNOW what makes hp.I spent years on the flow bench when I was racing 30 or so weeks a year for what seems like forever.I built many high output N/A engines that I would be confident to take to the track both for myself and many others in my area. In other words I don't fall for the *BS. Please post the dyno results for us when done.Somebody turn an exhaust fan.It's just too smoky in here.

Reflex
02-08-2008, 07:04 AM
For what its worth, a guy in sweden built a N/A 1585cc hayabusa with every possible trick in the book, and built it to run on 98 octane (thats premium around here). It made 253hp and 206Nm, on 103 octane, at the crank. No +200hp at the wheels without turbo IMO.

yoshi
02-08-2008, 07:36 AM
As for your correcting your info yoshi,I don't think so.All you have done is try to blow smoke by quoting all kind of numbers.It is obvious that yoshi has no idea what he will be able to accomplish with these "built" motors.You won't gain the kind of hp that he is talking about by lowering the compression on the N/A engines. Won't happen. A stock busa is 12:1 to start with.And yes you can and should run pump gas on the stocker and a plain ol' 1397 kit install.There is no provision for retarding the timing that will be necessary to reliably allow higher compression with pump gas tho.The addition of cams and port work to get those numbers will not increase low end tq.#'s.They will be possibly the same (or very close)as stockwith the 1397 kit and cams.The increased hp/tq rpm range WILL be raised not lowered.Hence ,back to the original question:will the engine be able to cope with the aadded load of the alternator and ps pump at idle.I still have no real idea and I am anxiously awaiting the results since I would also like to do the same. *Don't get me wrong,the 1397 will make more hp than stock for sure but not the 250-260 you did to say you would have to the GROUND.Building motors of any kind is my area of *expertise.I KNOW what makes hp.I spent years on the flow bench when I was racing 30 or so weeks a year for what seems like forever.I built many high output N/A engines that I would be confident to take to the track both for myself and many others in my area. In other words I don't fall for the *BS. Please post the dyno results for us when done.Somebody turn an exhaust fan.It's just too smoky in here.

First off, *you obviously can't read, because yes I did correct my info, so don't say I didn't, all the numbers I have claimed are correct with different kits, I got 2 of the kits mixed up a bit, but said I was wrong, so I don't know what more you want. I offered to post dyno results as soon as I get them before this stuff even came up, so why would I lie about something intentionally that I knew would show to be way off when I posted the numbers. *Second, a stock busa is 11:1, thought you'd know that since building motors of ANY kind is your area of expertise, the '08 are 12.5:1, and need to be lowered to run a turbo.

I changed my numbers, as to what hp the kit i'm going with, will get, getting 225 to the rear wheels with what i'm doing is *possible, so i'm not blowing smoke.

I said I don't know a lot about motors, I just know what I am told by the people that do, and he gave me a few pages of paperwork with dyno numbers and parts breakdown as to what's in each kit, so since i'm not perfect like you master, I switched up the higher hp numbers for the unreliable kit for the second down kit because there was a lot of info there, but correcting myself doesn't seam to matter to you, I said I was wrong, I posted the numbers I will actually get, but you keep bringing up the old numbers when I have told you a couple times. I WAS WRONG, I admitted it, what more do you want..

I will call him today and get the exact compression ratio, I didn't think I was gonna be questioned about every little detail or I would have paid closer attention to everything, *I said build the best you can, and he told me what he could do, he said wouldn't be such a good idea for my use, so I said to give me the best he can that is reliable. I have not attempted to deceive anyone in anyway, I just got some numbers mixed up between what he can do and what I decided to have him do, and as I said, i'll post dyno numbers, and especially now everyone is expecting to see those numbers, so if I intentionally fabricate numbers to make it sound better than it will actually be, i'm gonna look like an ass, so trust me, I am not gonna say anything that I know is untrue.......






For what its worth, a guy in sweden built a N/A 1585cc hayabusa with every possible trick in the book, and built it to run on 98 octane (thats premium around here). It made 253hp and 206Nm, on 103 octane, at the crank. No +200hp at the wheels without turbo IMO.this is the smallest kit he makes, puts almost 199 hp to the ground with a 1397 kit which I actually saw the dyno numbers for. *Doing the rest of the motor work for about 2k more gets around 225hp.....

yoshi
02-08-2008, 08:09 AM
I just called him. *The 2 motors he's building are 13:1, and can still run on pump gas, he said the different exhaust cams he's running helps with the octane I can use or something (again, I don't understand most of this stuff, I just build the rails). *He's been building these motors for years and has an amazing reputation. *I know he's switching out cams, crank, springs, bearings, oil pump gear and other stuff. *I'll try to get over there today and get a list of everything and ratios and stuff so the info will be correct instead of mixing up some of the numbers. *He said the motors getting over 250 to the rear wheels have like 15:1 compression or more........

masterfabr
02-08-2008, 08:52 AM
Damn you get pissy when you get pinned down. [smilie=biggrin.gif] I never called you a liar.NEVER.You admit you misquoted your numbers and what you just posted is in line with what is commonly done for a reliable motor.So for a reliable motor *for output above approx 200 to the ground take or give a little a turbo is the way to go .I will admit that in the range of approx 200-250 crank hp is a gray area and probably better to stay N/A. IMO the motors you are currently having built for the intended purpose are best left N/A.I agree with you about the turbo being more complex and costly for those that can't fab their own let alone map the thing and most buyers will be better off staying N/A.Most will also be better off using a proven kit if they wish to turbo a busa.

yoshi
02-08-2008, 08:56 AM
For what its worth, a guy in sweden built a N/A 1585cc hayabusa with every possible trick in the book, and built it to run on 98 octane (thats premium around here). It made 253hp and 206Nm, on 103 octane, at the crank. No +200hp at the wheels without turbo IMO.also, there are kits available for built motors putting 170 to the rear wheels, just do some googeling.............

yoshi
02-08-2008, 09:11 AM
Damn you get pissy when you get pinned down. [smilie=biggrin.gif] I never called you a liar.NEVER.You admit you misquoted your numbers and what you just posted is in line with what is commonly done for a reliable motor.So for a reliable motor *for output above approx 200 to the ground take or give a little a turbo is the way to go .I will admit that in the range of approx 200-250 crank hp is a gray area and probably better to stay N/A. IMO the motors you are currently having built for the intended purpose are best left N/A.I agree with you about the turbo being more complex and costly for those that can't fab their own let alone map the thing and most buyers will be better off staying N/A.Most will also be better off using a proven kit if they wish to turbo a busa.

I don't mind being called out on mistakes I make, or misinterpretations I have about anything in general, I am absolutely not above making a mistake, I make them all the time, just ask my wife. Some times I get lucky and just have to put my foot in my mouth, other times it cost me thousands of dollars. I'm bad with numbers in general, and when there are a bunch in my head, it's easy for me to say the wrong stuff. If the numbers I was quoting were not reasonable for the work I am having done, I fully understand you, or anyone else, calling me on it, and I have no problem with that. *Your exact words were "as far as correcting your info, I don't think so" *I took that as you calling me a liar, and even though some of my info has been incorrect, I corrected what I said, and I didn't like the way I was being made to sound which is that I was knowingly falsifying info. *I may have been wrong with some of what I said, but it was not intentional, and I corrected myself the second I knew otherwise...

masterfabr
02-08-2008, 09:12 AM
FWIW,I don't really give a rats patoot about how much power they make(or mine make in comparison).Performance will depend on the weight,gearing and tuning abilities of the owner *to determine the final numbers.All I am wishing to know is if the added load of the alt/ps will kill the motor at idle under full alternator output and ps load while turning the wheel while stationary.This is all that I care about.As I said previously I seriously hope this works because I want to do the same. Not trying to be negative in the least.

yoshi
02-08-2008, 09:20 AM
Sounds good, we tend to get off track with stuff, I think the power steering and alternator work, but we'll see what the dyno numbers say...




And i'm not trying to build drag rails. I build my rails for duning, and I need something reliable and kinda dummy proof. *The stock motor is a great unit, but for the weight of my rails, and the weight of some of the people driving them, I feel the motors will do good with the 75 more hp to the wheels over stock, so I am going with a reliable kit, that runs on pump gas. *Turbo's are more bang for the buck, but as we both have said, they are more finicky, and give the owner more possibilities to blow stuff up if they start tinkering with stuff like boost. *The setup i'm going with is more dummy proof for the public, which is my intended purpose..........

bdkw1
02-08-2008, 09:46 AM
Why can the little bikes run 13.5 to one? Is that able with the smaller piston?

Yes, smaller piston=smaller combustion chamber=more efficient.

masterfabr
02-08-2008, 10:58 AM
[quote="plkracer\";p=\"60993":3jte2fts]Why can the little bikes run 13.5 to one? Is that able with the smaller piston?

Yes, smaller piston=smaller combustion chamber=more efficient.[/quote:3jte2fts]It is a factor but actually smaller is not so much the key as combustion chamber/piston crown shape/swirl charistics,flame front speed, etc.etc...

masterfabr
02-08-2008, 01:45 PM
Sounds good, we tend to get off track with stuff, I think the power steering and alternator work, but we'll see what the dyno numbers say...




And i'm not trying to build drag rails. I build my rails for duning, and I need something reliable and kinda dummy proof. *The stock motor is a great unit, but for the weight of my rails, and the weight of some of the people driving them, I feel the motors will do good with the 75 more hp to the wheels over stock, so I am going with a reliable kit, that runs on pump gas. *Turbo's are more bang for the buck, but as we both have said, they are more finicky, and give the owner more possibilities to blow stuff up if they start tinkering with stuff like boost. *The setup i'm going with is more dummy proof for the public, which is my intended purpose..........Dammit! It's no fun when we agree! [smilie=rofl.gif]The dummy proof part is very true.If I was to offer a turbo busas rail I would have all the adjustments fixed and tamperproof. No adjustable wastgates or blowoff valves.For your N/A stuff I'd hide the damn powercommander also. Most guys will just eff up the map.And then bitch about how it won't run for shiiit!