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Bugpac
09-18-2007, 09:52 PM
Lets take a vote...We got to get to making rules not having endless debates correct, so how about a feeler post....

K-fab
09-18-2007, 10:03 PM
Good post Bug - thanks for taking the the bull by the horns.

Bugpac
09-18-2007, 10:07 PM
please edit it as i cant now and add a option were "Manufacturer hp base under 130"

The only major thing i see is that the larger you allow, the more tuneable and or modification potential to add hp quickly....

K-fab
09-18-2007, 10:12 PM
Oh sure - after I already voted.... - and I can't figure out how to go back and edit my vote! *(I know, that would be cheating... and I won't do that)

Bugpac
09-18-2007, 10:14 PM
there is only 5 voters, you could just delete it and start over...

hero_saku39
09-18-2007, 10:35 PM
I am the one that voted for 1000 cc but I would like to point out that I thing four cylinder engines should be limited to 600cc. *The TL1000 (v-twin) only puts out 135-140 hp and I would hate to exclude them.

ultraman
09-18-2007, 10:39 PM
Thats just it. On a short course i think anything much over 100 hp would be a penalty, and not an advantage.

hero_saku39
09-18-2007, 11:16 PM
The TL1000 are not much over 100 hp. *New 600cc super sport bikes are 130 hp. *Why exclude a potentially cheap and readily available engine for 5 hp.

boilermaker
09-18-2007, 11:16 PM
Torque rules, big engines have torque.

Rorty
09-19-2007, 12:39 AM
I am the one that voted for 1000 cc but I would like to point out that I thing four cylinder engines should be limited to 600cc. *The TL1000 (v-twin) only puts out 135-140 hp and I would hate to exclude them.

I like that: four cylinder four-strokes up to 600cc and two cylinder four-strokes up to 1000cc. Any number of cylinder two-strokes up to 500cc.

The TL 1000 R puts out 135 HP and the S version puts out 125 HP. The same engine, de-tuned, in the SV 1000 and DL 1000 puts out 106 HP. There's so many of these bikes about that it would be fantastic to use either the 106, 125 or 135 HP engine as a controlled engine for at least one class.

Part of the success of stadium racing is the spectacle - imagine the roar of a bunch of those V-twins taking off! Spectators would come just to hear that alone.

ultraman
09-19-2007, 01:12 AM
I like that: four cylinder four-strokes up to 600cc and two cylinder four-strokes up to 1000cc. Any number of cylinder two-strokes up to 500cc.


Change that to 600cc 2 cycle, and i think its a winner *[smilie=big_bday.gif]

ProtoDie
09-19-2007, 05:51 AM
like that: four cylinder four-strokes up to 600cc and two cylinder four-strokes up to 1000cc. Any number of cylinder two-strokes up to 500cc.


Change that to 600cc 2 cycle, and i think its a winner *


I think that sounds good

K-fab
09-19-2007, 07:20 AM
I like that: four cylinder four-strokes up to 600cc and two cylinder four-strokes up to 1000cc. Any number of cylinder two-strokes up to 500cc.


Change that to 600cc 2 cycle, and i think its a winner *[smilie=big_bday.gif]


This is sounding like the direction that the ideas have started to head towards.

Realizing that each type of engine has it's own little niche, output and such is finally starting to sink in with everyone (me included) and make sense.

http://www.yellowdogracing.com/images/thumbsup.gif

Odyknuck
09-19-2007, 08:42 AM
Well considering that Dave S. and myself are using 700 Rotax twins and Dave C and Jeff are using 600 CC twin Rotaxs in our Pilots I take exception to the 500 cc 2 stroke limit.

Reflex
09-19-2007, 09:34 AM
I like that: four cylinder four-strokes up to 600cc and two cylinder four-strokes up to 1000cc. Any number of cylinder two-strokes up to 500cc.


Change that to 600cc 2 cycle, and i think its a winner *[smilie=big_bday.gif]

I think 1000cc twins and 750cc fours, like in Superbike racing before the 1000cc general rule. And then 600cc 2 stroke.

Kludge
09-19-2007, 09:34 AM
My thoughts on the engine section. The "Special Engine Class" should be added to help kick start the racing and should be terminated after two years. *I would expect that as soon as someone with a "Special Class Engine" starts wining, the drivers will just say no.

Fuel Requirements:

All engines must use unleaded gasoline fuel of less than 99 octane [aka Pump Gas] that is designated for use in automobiles and widely available to the general public.
Oil may be mixed with the gasoline for 2 stroke engines. *No other chemicals are allowed to be added to the fuel.

Open Class:
Four Stroke Engines:
Naturally Aspirated, up to 1100cc with a maximum of two (2) Cylinders
Naturally Aspirated, up to * 600cc with a maximum of four (4) Cylinders

Two Stroke Engines:
Naturally Aspirated, up to *600c with a maximum of two (2) Cylinders
Naturally Aspirated, up to *500c with a maximum of three (3) Cylinders

Limited Class:
Four Stroke Engines:
Naturally Aspirated, up to 650cc with a maximum of two (2) Cylinders

Two Stroke Engines:
Naturally Aspirated, up to *500c with a maximum of two (2) Cylinders


Special Engine Class:
At any specific event, engines outside of Open and Limited class rules may be allowed to complete by a unanimous vote of the drivers in that class and be allowed to run. Engines in the special class must not exceed one additional cylinder at the class displacement limit or 250cc additional displacement at the class cylinder limit for the type of engine. *In all cases engines believed to be over 100 hp must run in the Open Class if allowed by vote. Rotary engines are constrained by the 2-stroke engine rules and each rotor is considered equivalent to a cylinder.

ProtoDie
09-19-2007, 10:45 AM
EFI needs to be allowed, as most modern motors have it

Why control the fuel octane??? and how can you control it?

The only benefit would be if everyone were to run the exact car with the same engine with no mods.
Then octane can be an advantage over competion
And then how do you control the motor mods ?

Octane is small compared to what you can do to a motor to gain power.
One guy may run an aftermarket pipe with regular gas, and another may run a stock pipe with 110 oct.

IMO 2 stroke 700 motors should be in a class with 1000 4 cylinder bike motors.

I think we need to get a base line for the rules that are open & inviting to the most cars and people.


It does not mean that you have to race by yourself, or you can not race if your motor is to big, and mostly 600's showed up. You can still lineup and race with the pack, but you will be scored in a different class

Alot of smaller specifics can be worked out once races start happening, and a need to add to the rules presents itself

The main thing is get people to the track to get this rolling.

AtvNut
09-19-2007, 11:40 AM
if ya make a tire rule like a 22x10 you dont need an engine rule because you can only put so much to the ground

ProtoDie
09-19-2007, 12:09 PM
Tire size can affect much more than how much power is transmitted to the ground.

So why use one to control or compensate for the other.

Different chassis, and suspension setups are affected differently by tire *size.
Also gear ratio & ground clearance are affected.


I personally *run a 20 x 10 on the rear, but would like the option to go with what works at ,,,whatever track it is at.

I just tried some new rear tires at Bob's last weekend, and they were too aggressive. *
They were a 22 x10 , and they gripped so much they pushed me threw almost every corner.
I switched back to my regular tires for the next heat and the car handled waaaaaaaayyy better.

This was due to the tread pattern of course, and not the height, I needed to spin my rears more to turn better.

so I guess my point is, you should be able to run what ever tires make you car handle the best.

AtvNut
09-19-2007, 02:33 PM
ok so why not run whatever engine makes your car go the fastest? There has to be a limit somewhere? tires are cheap and chassis set up is not hindered by tire size if you know ahead of time what your build parameters are.

ProtoDie
09-19-2007, 03:20 PM
Well, the thread is engine cc, not tire size,,,,as far as limits

I just think that it is not that simple to use the tires as a means of limiting the horsepower to the ground.
With all the different tread patterns out there, you would have to specify one tire that everyone has to use.

After that you would have to get your tire from the track like other styles of racing,,,,so no one is cutting extra groove or modifying

I doubt the build parameters will go as far as specifying length of A arms, travel, king pin inclination , trailing arms vs a arms vs 3 link vs 5 link, gearing & ratios.
All of which tire size is a factor in performance and design

Also, what about pre existing cars that are designed and already built to run a taller tire than 22. *Like Kfabs Briggs ( I think, not sure ,what size but looks tall)

What is the largest size the original stadium lites ran ??

If there is going to be a limit on tire size, maybe that should be in a different thread, but do it for the purpose of keeping the tires the same, not for limiting horse power.

To me it looks like the motor size is close to being figured out.

Bugpac
09-19-2007, 05:48 PM
I like kludges suggestion the best, naturally aspirated would include efi just no turbos, nitrous etc....

Bugpac
09-19-2007, 05:59 PM
Seems how this thread is getting off track more than its making them, I have a suggestion, limit any motor to manyfacturers specs of under 120hp......Most 120 hp motors once someone dumps there life savings into them will easily be capable of 150-160....That is to much.....If you start letting 1000 cc twins etc making stock 140 they easily can be pumped to probbaly push 180....You have to draw the line somewere, or not have any at all.....

As for tire size, height isnt going to make a bit of difference in hp to the ground.....width is going to ultimatley be the deciding factor...Start a new thread and preach tire size, were trying to get somewere in this one.....

ProtoDie
09-19-2007, 06:13 PM
Whoops [smilie=blush.gif] *my bad ,,,I mis understood

Should their be a class for the 4 cylinder 750 & 1000,,,,,
I am seeing them at
(GSXR)
750 HP 110-120

and 1000 HP 138ish

GSXR 600 96-103HP

Here is one link to where I got the specs. *I know hp specs range quite abit

http://www.factorypro.com/dyno/true1.html


I do not know what 2 stroke sled engines put out.

Maybe someone can post some specs

Bugpac
09-19-2007, 06:17 PM
my point exactly, 138 ish is pushing it, i believe for the purpose....the 750 could be easily pumped up to exeed the limits intended, were some of the older 1000 may only be rated for 110-120....

IMO we need to set a standard manufacturer hp limit, then go from there, as there are far to many choices on engines etc.....You know someone will take the 1k and it will be seing close to 200 ponies....

ultraman
09-19-2007, 06:39 PM
The only thing i don't agree with in kludge's suggestion, is the 500cc 2 stroke limit in the open class.It should be 600 tripple.There are alot of these engines available.I can't think of any mf that makes a 500cc tripple.

hero_saku39
09-19-2007, 06:53 PM
120 hp eliminates too many engines by just 10 or 15 hp, including all of the new super sport 600s. *Keept it at 140. *OEM parts only allowing aftermarket exhaust and air filters. *If we don't want to do that then ignore the few guys making big hp with the twins until later. *I think if this is done right most people will not be looking to spend money on more hp. *I think most will be satisfied with the I4 bike engines because of price. *Like someone pointed out earlier, if a couple of guys start stompin ass then let them run together but score them in a different class. *I am all about keeping the gsxr 1300 and 1000 class bikes out. *They make too much hp to use and they would make this class get more expensive (by 2k at the least). *If all of the available engines are in the 100 to 140 hp range that opens it up to a huge number of engines and the racing will be close. *I think if you have 100 hp then you will be competitive and too much hp will not be a help but eliminating too many engines may make it harder for people to get in to it.

slowbriggs
09-19-2007, 07:26 PM
At 100 hp you are limited to 500 cc sled engines. *(some are rated at over 100hp) *I can tell you from personal experience that a 500 sled motor in a briggs car has a lot of competition from built 350 odys and well built pilot motors in a drag race. *Once the turns and bumps are put into the equation the hondas are a thing of the past.

hero_saku39
09-19-2007, 07:32 PM
At 100 hp you are limited to 500 cc sled engines. *(some are rated at over 100hp) *I can tell you from personal experience that a 500 sled motor in a briggs car has a lot of competition from built 350 odys and well built pilot motors in a drag race. *Once the turns and bumps are put into the equation the hondas are a thing of the past.

I am not sure if this is in response to my post but I am not suggesting that we limit to 100 hp, I am saying that if you have at least 100 hp you will be competitive and that bumping the limit up to 135+/- you open a ton of engines up for inclusion.

slowbriggs
09-19-2007, 07:40 PM
I agree with you on that.

Bugpac
09-19-2007, 07:41 PM
hero very valid points, I could see 140 hp limit, no matter the configuration 2 stroke or 4....I dont think running the larger motors with the same cars is a good thing.....Even if scoring diffrently.....Only cars competing against one another should race at the same time on a closed course track.....

My validation to this is if the leader in the 600 class is getting blocked by the slow guy in the unlimited class and gets overtaken by another car in the same 600 *class then you arent racing the same cars anymore.... [smilie=biggrin.gif]

hero_saku39
09-19-2007, 07:50 PM
hero very valid points, I could see 140 hp limit, no matter the configuration 2 stroke or 4....I dont think running the larger motors with the same cars is a good thing.....Even if scoring diffrently.....Only cars competing against one another should race at the same time on a closed course track.....

My validation to this is if the leader in the 600 class is getting blocked by the slow guy in the unlimited class and gets overtaken by another car in the same 600 *class then you arent racing the same cars anymore.... [smilie=biggrin.gif]

Can your last statement be substituted with "140 hp class" or are you still thinking something else?

Bugpac
09-19-2007, 07:52 PM
yes, im just saying if people bring big machines busas etc as some have suggested run them together score them diffrently...Oh ya 600cc class was just for demonstration purposes, *[smilie=biggrin.gif]

slowbriggs
09-19-2007, 07:56 PM
Here is a link of a video at spring valley. *These guys run 1000cc bike motors. *The honda pilots are no where to be seen. *Is this fair for everyone else that paid to race? *http://www.sonicoffroad.com/videos2.htm *

IMO bike motors should race with bike motors and CVT equipped buggies should run with CVT buggies. *Even the small bike motors make way more torque than any of the two strokes. *

I see no problem running the two classes together. *Many off road events run multiple classes together. *If a slow vehicle gets in your way from another class, it is no different than lapped traffic, or if you made a mistake and had to work your way back up. *I do realize this would suck if you were in the last turn, wheel *to wheel with someone and another slower vehicle made theresults not turn to your favor but it is racing.

If you seperated the two then you could limit the CVT to 600 (but what would you do with the revolt) and then put all the bike engines together. *
Just a thought

Bugpac
09-19-2007, 08:01 PM
You shouldnt have to fight lapped traffic thats not even in your race, i can see doing that in the desert, not a short course.....

If there is enuff stock pilot then they could run there own class....It is no different then bringing a knife to a gun fight....There is a lot of people upgrading pilots to 600 etc, you surely cant group a 600 pilot with a stocker....So again were is the line to be drawn....On a tight track a good driver could very well eat a 600 bike motor....In the dunes it likely will not....Have to have some drawbacks to go forward......

hero_saku39
09-19-2007, 08:07 PM
yes, im just saying if people bring big machines busas etc as some have suggested run them together score them diffrently...Oh ya 600cc class was just for demonstration purposes, *[smilie=biggrin.gif]

I agree..........let the guys with busas and gsxr 1ks race together and find out they are turning slower lap times than the "smaller class".

What does everyone think of this?

140hp limit?

I've been looking up hp/tq #s and though I've been rallying for the 1k twins, the hp is on par but the tq. #s are bigger than I thought??????

slowbriggs
09-19-2007, 08:23 PM
I am good for 140 hp limit. *But do you say stock long block?? *If so then the pilot ody's would not be competative. *Or do you say any repowered vehicle engine must remain a factory long block, allowing the pilots and ody to build there's to compete.

K-fab
09-19-2007, 08:29 PM
Well considering that Dave S. and myself are using 700 Rotax twins and Dave C and Jeff are using 600 CC twin Rotaxs in our Pilots I take exception to the 500 cc 2 stroke limit. *- Nice to see ya Knuck!
Okay, since you have real world use of the 700cc sled engine, how does it compare to the 600 bike engines? *The idea is to try to make as level of a playing field as possible - w/o getting overboard (Busa).

As noted, the TL and SL 1000 V twins make around 125 hp - so that should be just fine. *The 750cc Weber makes 80 - so there shouldn't be an issue.

If we can figure out a "max" power allowed - probably in the 135 - 140 range, things can probably progress on the engine ideas.

There have been some really good ideas put forth - having a list of engines that qualify is good, having input from people running 700 twins in their Pilots is good. *The more info we can get together - even though it makes more for us to wade through - makes it better and better.

Keep the ideas coming guys - we seem to be a bit more on target each day. *http://www.yellowdogracing.com/images/thumbsup.gif

hero_saku39
09-19-2007, 08:31 PM
I am good for 140 hp limit. *But do you say stock long block?? *If so then the pilot ody's would not be competative. *Or do you say any repowered vehicle engine must remain a factory long block, allowing the pilots and ody to build there's to compete.

Does anyone have stock pilots or odysseys anymore?

ultraman
09-19-2007, 08:36 PM
Okay, since you have real world use of the 700cc sled engine, how does it compare to the 600 bike engines? *The idea is to try to make as level of a playing field as possible - w/o getting overboard



If you watch any of the Bob's races you will see dave's 600 pilot and the proto boys with gsxr 600's , are pretty evenly matched. Good side by side racing [smilie=biggrin.gif]

Pacman
09-19-2007, 08:43 PM
[quote="slowbriggs\";p=\"44910":8x1xkz5u]I am good for 140 hp limit. *But do you say stock long block?? *If so then the pilot ody's would not be competative. *Or do you say any repowered vehicle engine must remain a factory long block, allowing the pilots and ody to build there's to compete.

Does anyone have stock pilots or odysseys anymore?[/quote:8x1xkz5u]

Yes! [smilie=biggrin.gif]

PilotHawK
09-19-2007, 08:44 PM
700cc sled motor in a stock framed pilot...now thats scary....I have seen *what one looks like with a 400 in it when things didn't go exactly as planned.

http://www.g2-innovations.com/g2buggy/FL400/wreck.jpg

Bugpac
09-19-2007, 08:45 PM
I think stock in apperance is about the best policing we could do...

slowbriggs
09-19-2007, 08:48 PM
Here are a bunch of videos from a EEE with a 500, not tuned in the clutching department-
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=5Kt7jnkz5Oo

My briggs car with a built indy 500 motor -
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=I0wAH1MKhVc

My Briggs with a 138 hp 700
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=nX6rjvYrai8
with smaller rear tires-
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Wu9Kb9UQFPU

Don't have video of my indy 500 powered pilot or my kz 750 powered fl350 ody.

PilotHawK
09-19-2007, 08:49 PM
Forget about it. I guess I will just finish the build on my lowly 400ex powered buggy and play in the woods with it. No sense even thinking about competing....my pockets aren't deep enough.

Bugpac
09-19-2007, 08:51 PM
Forget about it. I guess I will just finish the build on my lowly 400ex powered buggy and play in the woods with it. No sense even thinking about competing....my pockets aren't deep enough.

I know mine arent, and i likely will be playing in the woods with you, How far from ashville nc are you? [smilie=biggrin.gif]

slowbriggs
09-19-2007, 08:51 PM
700cc sled motor in a stock framed pilot...now thats scary....I have seen *what one looks like with a 400 in it when things didn't go exactly as planned.

http://www.g2-innovations.com/g2buggy/FL400/wreck.jpg

I remember towing that out of woods in MD. *Bad weekend for all three of us.

hero_saku39
09-19-2007, 09:02 PM
Forget about it. I guess I will just finish the build on my lowly 400ex powered buggy and play in the woods with it. No sense even thinking about competing....my pockets aren't deep enough.

Do you have some input? *You have not made a post in this thread untill the end of the 3rd page. *We'd like to hear what you have to say.

Trailshark
09-19-2007, 10:41 PM
Here is a link of a video at spring valley. *These guys run 1000cc bike motors. *The honda pilots are no where to be seen. *Is this fair for everyone else that paid to race? *http://www.sonicoffroad.com/videos2.htm *


That was the second race of the day, they watered the track way too much. *Check out the video of the first "heat" race. *I am number 8 in the race. *I took the lead in the first lap and held off the sonic buggies ( 600 and 900 mc ) Drak tornado (1300 busa ) 500 converted LT pilot and 400 pilot for 7 laps in my modified stock suspended (at the time ) 400 Pilot.... But they didn't mention or show that part in their video on their website... * [smilie=blink.gif] *http://www.sonicoffroad.com/videos/NOORA%20Race%201of2.wmv

I like where this idea is heading, I am excited *[smilie=boogie.gif]

Rorty
09-19-2007, 11:11 PM
Power varies from one engine to another even if they're supposed to be identical, The only way you'd ever level the HP is to run a control engine from a specific bike or sled. Why not accept manufacturers' HP figures up to a max of 135 HP for any engine.

Sub divide that by four cylinder four-strokes up to 750cc and V-twin four-strokes up to 1,000cc. Two strokes? 500-600cc - I'm not into them, so I can't comment much on them.

No forced induction on any engines.

You can't police exhausts or air boxes because 99.9% of stock ones are modified just to get the engines into the buggies and working. There are too many areas where it's impossible to police, but if anyone sticks their neck out while running one of the prescribed engines, then they should expect to be penalised.

If after all this, any competitor appears to have a clear edge, then his engine should be dynoed (at his expense - independant print-out to be submitted before next race to ascertain handicap) and if it's over the 135 HP limit, then that car should be handicapped with added ballast.

Busas (and other similar high HP engines) are just dangerous and unnecessaary in this type of racing IMO.

PilotHawK
09-20-2007, 12:21 AM
Hero I have commented on this from the get go. Maybe not in this post, but elsewhere. 135HP in the woods is big time overkill. I cannot build a 135hp buggy for racing, and a more moderate buggy for woods/trail riding so count me out of the racing circuit.

Not sure why I even started this thread. Maybe in the hopes that somewhere along the lines we could hammer out a generalized set of rules to make lites competitive with each other and not class 10 race cars. I applaud everyone who builds cars here, and a really like the interest that has been shown in the course of this discussion. The fact is that many of us REQUIRE a dual sport buggy, and with the stuff being thrown out now, the hopes I had of building a semi-competitive "once-in-a-while" racer are gone. I in no way want to put a damper on anyone's desires, so I will stick with the woods, and provide input when I have something decent to offer.

My primary desire was to get people thinking about the direction of lites in the near future. I guess I have accomplished that much anyway. I now realize that my definition of a "lite" is a misconception, and nothing like what I thought it was. Like I have said before, in order to get people to the track you need to make it as easy as possible for them, and if 135hp is "easy" go for it. I sincerely hope lites can take off again because they are such fun machines, and they are a great to watch in wheel to wheel action.

nutnbolt2002
09-20-2007, 12:34 AM
PilotHawk, I would like to see a smaller race car also, what is your concept?

Odyknuck
09-20-2007, 07:38 AM
This post is a little off track from the purpose of the topic however I feel it has valid points to ponder. I currently have no Rotax 600 to 700 comparison. The trans plants are new to Dave S and my self. I have not yet put the motor in mine until the bugs are worked out in Daves. One thing I would like to comment on with putting any sled motor in a Pilot is no matter what size you use your top speed is still pretty much limited by the rear tire diameter, stock Pilot gearbox and the sled CVT. I have driven Daves 700 and truth be told i find that the wheel spin is actually to much (power to weight ratio) and yes its great to have the extra HP however in all honestly you really can't use it all. *It will help alot (just for the Bug) in the woods for climbing hills and on the track for breaking the wheels loose in the turns but other than that *no major advantage over my LT500. I find that my LT 500 is more controllable than the 700 so motor size is a relative term anyways if your not going to change the ratios of the gearbox. The main reason we are doing the transplants is for motor reliabilty. Its getting really old to have to rebuild Pilot motors so often. The stock rotax motors have plenty of HP with out any mods and I see sleds getting 5 to 7000 miles with out a top end rebuild. You wont even come close with a pilot motor. *So the long and the short of it is if we stay under the 130 HP limit all is good. Otherwise it gets to complicated. As far as cost (for Pilothawk) of a sled engine they are a whole lot cheaper than having a Pilot engine rebuilt. *I picked my 700 up for $800.00 and that included Pipe, carbs, air box, wiring, ecu, primary and secondary clutchs with a belt.

hero_saku39
09-20-2007, 09:38 AM
Hero I have commented on this from the get go. Maybe not in this post, but elsewhere. 135HP in the woods is big time overkill. I cannot build a 135hp buggy for racing, and a more moderate buggy for woods/trail riding so count me out of the racing circuit.

Not sure why I even started this thread. Maybe in the hopes that somewhere along the lines we could hammer out a generalized set of rules to make lites competitive with each other and not class 10 race cars. I applaud everyone who builds cars here, and a really like the interest that has been shown in the course of this discussion. The fact is that many of us REQUIRE a dual sport buggy, and with the stuff being thrown out now, the hopes I had of building a semi-competitive "once-in-a-while" racer are gone. I in no way want to put a damper on anyone's desires, so I will stick with the woods, and provide input when I have something decent to offer.

My primary desire was to get people thinking about the direction of lites in the near future. I guess I have accomplished that much anyway. I now realize that my definition of a "lite" is a misconception, and nothing like what I thought it was. Like I have said before, in order to get people to the track you need to make it as easy as possible for them, and if 135hp is "easy" go for it. I sincerely hope lites can take off again because they are such fun machines, and they are a great to watch in wheel to wheel action.

Yes, I'm sorry, I remember now that you originally started this discussion. *I'm sorry it has moved away from your plans. *I don't really know what to say. I guess you were looking to build something to the specs of a stock pilot or so?

minibajaman
09-20-2007, 11:35 AM
Hero I have commented on this from the get go. Maybe not in this post, but elsewhere. 135HP in the woods is big time overkill. I cannot build a 135hp buggy for racing, and a more moderate buggy for woods/trail riding so count me out of the racing circuit.

Not sure why I even started this thread. Maybe in the hopes that somewhere along the lines we could hammer out a generalized set of rules to make lites competitive with each other and not class 10 race cars. I applaud everyone who builds cars here, and a really like the interest that has been shown in the course of this discussion. The fact is that many of us REQUIRE a dual sport buggy, and with the stuff being thrown out now, the hopes I had of building a semi-competitive "once-in-a-while" racer are gone. I in no way want to put a damper on anyone's desires, so I will stick with the woods, and provide input when I have something decent to offer.

My primary desire was to get people thinking about the direction of lites in the near future. I guess I have accomplished that much anyway. I now realize that my definition of a "lite" is a misconception, and nothing like what I thought it was. Like I have said before, in order to get people to the track you need to make it as easy as possible for them, and if 135hp is "easy" go for it. I sincerely hope lites can take off again because they are such fun machines, and they are a great to watch in wheel to wheel action.

I'm with PH on this. *I'm not going to build a buggy just for racing, it has to be able to be used in the woods on trails as well. *There is no way I would be able to make enough races to justify only a race machine. *I also never plan on driving it in sand, so massive horsepower is not necessary for me.

I am planning on building a buggy very soon. *I have most of it designed, but I will wait for these rules to be somewhat decided before I start building because I do want to be able to race it. *

As far as engines go, for the short course type racing that we are planning for I really think anything over 100hp would be overkill in a "Lite" sized vehicle. *However, given the enormous range of engines available, there definitely needs to be restrictions to keep the racing competitive. *I think limiting engine displacement is the way to go because there are too many variables and claims to limit horsepower. *I am going to agree with the guidelines that were started on the first page and propose a limit of 600cc I4 bike engines, 1000cc four stoke 2 or 3 cylinders, and 600cc two strokes (any # cylinders). *This sounds reasonable to me and I think would allow for somewhat close racing. *Any engines larger than this really put a vehicle out of the "Lite" class anyway.

That said, I'll probably only be using at most 80hp in my buggy anyway, but by keeping it light and torquey I think it will be plenty competitive.

My definition of "Lite" is Pilot/Ody, Redline, Drakart (Formula cross/extreme, not the new ones), Briggs built, Rorty R6, etc. *Nothing two seat, no Rorty R11's, no Busa engines, etc. *The closer the cars are in size the more fun the racing will be.

hero_saku39
09-20-2007, 12:08 PM
I have not done the math but you guys wanting to build the small lite woods buggy is it a safe to say you can build them around 650 lbs. and 80 hp? *If so considering Protodie size cars @ 950 and 110-115 hp the power to weight ratio will be close. *Just a thought. *Or maybe we need to consider two classes with the one we have been focusing on as the "open" class???????????

nutnbolt2002
09-20-2007, 12:13 PM
I was just looking at the Protodie cars on BOB'S raceway, and that looks like close racing between his cars and the hondas. I would think that for that size of track or small, like inside racing a larger engine will be a disadvantage because of wheel spin.

Odyknuck
09-20-2007, 12:58 PM
minibajaman, I was at the Hatfield McCoy trail system recently with Dave S. He was in his Rotax 700 powered Long Travel Pilot and I was in my LT 500 Pilot and I did not see him having any issues with running the trails. *Well except maybe the little cluster of trees that tore off his right front spindel. *But that could happen to anybody in a stock 400, trust me i know first hand lol. You can build a high horse power buggy to work well on the trails and play in the woods. You can clutch for either application with the CVT system. You can also change your tire size and tread to suit. Is a 600 or a 700 over kill for a Pilot or similar weight buggy , certainly, but the motors are cheap and dependable. Better yet you can buy parts easyly and in abundance. *If you really wanted to derate the motor for the trails you could have two exhaust systems, one for trails and one for race. *I guess what I'm saying is dont count yourself out of racing because of motor size and cost.

ProtoDie
09-20-2007, 01:13 PM
We built our cars for fun, trails, dunes, whatever ,,,,where ever we decide to go play.

When we were building the generation 2 ProtoLite cars a couple of years ago (current ones) this same discusion was going on and they were trying to define stadium or offroad Lite rules.
We designed our play cars to pass stadium racing rules so that if it did pick up,,,,we could go play there too.

Last year, we were faster at Bob's,,,,,,,,,,,then Dave put a 600 sled motor in his pilot,,,,,,,,now real close racing, but Dave has won the most this year.

On Bob's track it is real close racing, and I think Daves Pilot has less wheel spin, and is smaller, lighter (250lbs lighter) and maybe faster.
It is so close though, that most races boil down to who does not screw up a corner.
If you screw up,,,,,,,there is someone there to take your place.

On a 1/4 mile circle track, we are faster, but alot of this is car set up for the corners.

No matter what size motor you have, the car can only corner so fast (how well you set it up) or you will shoot off the track.

On a longer offroad track, I think a larger 750or 1000 motor would beat, due to the long straight aways like Spring Valley, and also Stone City.
But another large factor is how well & fast your car can take the jumps,,,,,,,,back to setup and not CC's

I would not talk of larger motors discourage anyone. *I think no matter what,,,a 600 can compete, have fun, and win. *600 will be fine for trails, and dunes too.

The larger the motor, the better the driver has to be with driving & throttle control.
I have spun my car out at least 6 times this year [smilie=banghead.gif]

So,,,,IMO build a single seat buggy with a 600 that matches the size, weight, tubing,,,,,,,,,guidelines for racing, and it will still be good for all your other fun even if you only make the track once a year or so.

A few guys here in Michigan have motors larger than 600. *I think it would be great to see them at the track, and it would not bother me 1 bit if they are running a Honda 954, or something larger.

Odyknuck
09-20-2007, 02:36 PM
From Pilothawk
700cc sled motor in a stock framed pilot...now thats scary....I have seen *what one looks like with a 400 in it when things didn't go exactly as planned.

http://www.g2-innovations.com/g2buggy/FL400/wreck.jpg

--------------------------------------------------------------------------------

Yep, I remember that like it was yesterday......................................... .I was in it when it happened.
Just goes to show ya Horsepower and engine displacement really has little to do with crap happening! [smilie=big_explode.gif]
I know you guys are thinking then why would I want to drive a pilot with a 700 in it. * To answer that is easy, most of us here are crazey! lol

Slow briggs who are you? *I remember it being towed I just dont remember by who.

Bugpac
09-20-2007, 05:29 PM
Exactly, the motor is the least of the battle iIMO, surely it help, but you got to have a chassis that will work....

Odyknuck
09-20-2007, 07:51 PM
Meaning what?

Bugpac
09-20-2007, 08:17 PM
Meaning what, You dont see 1500 hp drag cars turning do you. Motor is only part of the battle, if the chassis wont work hp is absolutely worthless....For what we are trying to do..........

turbotexas
09-20-2007, 09:30 PM
did the stadium lites of the past have 600cc to 1000cc 140 horsepower motors???

ultraman
09-20-2007, 09:36 PM
I believe they were pilots/ odyssey's and purpose built machines (Briggs,Tripple EEE, ect) with 440-500cc max powerplants.

Bugpac
09-20-2007, 10:09 PM
did the stadium lites of the past have 600cc to 1000cc 140 horsepower motors???

were in the present not the past.....All tho i wouldnt disagree with a smaller engine size like 440 max, but ill never ever win that battle, lol....

Pacman
09-20-2007, 10:15 PM
All this talk about the Suzuki 600 - 4 but no mention of the other Suzuki ......the SV650 V-twin.......it doesn't have anywhere near the HP....only 72 but the torque is within 5 ft/lbs of the 4 banger.....that and the power band is wide compared to the 600 - 4 which you need to keep in the upper RPM range to make power....... That's why I voted for 750cc *to allow the SV650....when Rorty gets his version done that is what I will look into for a powerplant..... [smilie=biggrin.gif]

minibajaman
09-20-2007, 10:22 PM
[quote="turbotexas\";p=\"45066":3ib7ja2y]did the stadium lites of the past have 600cc to 1000cc 140 horsepower motors???

were in the present not the past.....All tho i wouldnt disagree with a smaller engine size like 440 max, but ill never ever win that battle, lol....[/quote:3ib7ja2y]

Agreed, I would vote for a smaller engine but since most people are really into the bigger must be better ideology we have to allow some of them in order to get enough people to have a race.

hero_saku39
09-20-2007, 10:30 PM
[quote="Bugpac\";p=\"45070":25ubm6ih][quote="turbotexas\";p=\"45066":25ubm6ih]did the stadium lites of the past have 600cc to 1000cc 140 horsepower motors???

were in the present not the past.....All tho i wouldnt disagree with a smaller engine size like 440 max, but ill never ever win that battle, lol....[/quote:25ubm6ih]

Agreed, I would vote for a smaller engine but since most people are really into the bigger must be better ideology we have to allow some of them in order to get enough people to have a race.[/quote:25ubm6ih]

You're condescension is duly noted. *From here on we will concede to your superior thought process and you shall tell us what we need and want.

Rorty
09-20-2007, 10:50 PM
...the SV650 V-twin.......it doesn't have anywhere near the HP....only 72 but the torque is within 5 ft/lbs of the 4 banger.

http://i20.photobucket.com/albums/b237/Rorty/PIX/a.gif
I'd forgotten about the SV650. It would be a superb control engine, would be far more tractable than any of the four cylinder 600cc engines and would provide plenty of thrills.

turbotexas
09-20-2007, 11:36 PM
I am not sure who you are refering to???
You're condescension is duly noted.
But it appears a tad sarcastic???

Bug??? were in the present not the past.....All tho i wouldnt disagree with a smaller engine size like 440 max, but ill never ever win that battle, lol...

I am trying to get a grasp of who is defineing "lites" and why??? I thought the topic was stadium lites...

seems to be a split in camps here... those who want a Stadium lite of similar stature of the "past" and those that want the big power ie the 1600 class buggies... (although I think I remember the 1600 cc VW powered buggies only have about 50 HP...) It would seem the MC powered 600cc 750cc and 1000cc would be more competitive with the older class VW powered buggies???



[quote="minibajaman\";p=\"45074":2ofpud9f][quote="Bugpac\";p=\"45070":2ofpud9f][quote="turbotexas\";p=\"45066":2ofpud9f]did the stadium lites of the past have 600cc to 1000cc 140 horsepower motors???

were in the present not the past.....All tho i wouldnt disagree with a smaller engine size like 440 max, but ill never ever win that battle, lol....[/quote:2ofpud9f]

Agreed, I would vote for a smaller engine but since most people are really into the bigger must be better ideology we have to allow some of them in order to get enough people to have a race.[/quote:2ofpud9f]

You're condescension is duly noted. *From here on we will concede to your superior thought process and you shall tell us what we need and want.[/quote:2ofpud9f]

minibajaman
09-20-2007, 11:42 PM
[quote="minibajaman\";p=\"45074":3bpl7v0j]Agreed, I would vote for a smaller engine but since most people are really into the bigger must be better ideology we have to allow some of them in order to get enough people to have a race.

You're condescension is duly noted. *From here on we will concede to your superior thought process and you shall tell us what we need and want.[/quote:3bpl7v0j]

Actually, it was the people with smaller engines who originally started this topic (PilotHawk, K-fab) in trying to keep with the Lite tradition of being a smaller car with a small but powerful engine. *It was everyone else who started crying that every big engine should be allowed too, and forced PH out of the topic. *If the idea is to create a class of somewhat fairly matched cars, then the rules need to have reasonable limits on engines in order for that to happen.

Rorty
09-20-2007, 11:47 PM
...seems to be a split in camps here... those who want a Stadium lite of similar stature of the "past" and those that want the big power ie the 1600 class buggies... (although I think I remember the 1600 cc VW powered buggies only have about 50 HP...) It would seem the MC powered 600cc 750cc and 1000cc would be more competitive with the older class VW powered buggies???

I don't think anyones thinking of full size VW buggies. You're a bit off with your engine comparrisons too; bike engines may make reasonable HP fifures but very little torque. Car engines make much more torque - a VW motor can produce twenty times the torque of a bike motor.

turbotexas
09-20-2007, 11:51 PM
From this site...
http://www.desertrides.com/reference/racing_classes.php

Score Lite: Single or two seat vehicles limited to air cooled engines.

Aka: 1100 (BITD)
Horsepower: 135 Single-seat, 150 Two-seat
Wheel Travel: 12-18 Front, 18-24 Rear
Weight: 1650-2100
Top Speed: 90
Cost New: $40,000-80,000
Cost Per Prep: $3,500-7,000

Basic Rules: Front suspension is limited to VW Type configuration; suspension must be of the twin beam, trialing arm type. Front and rear trailing arms are open(length, width, and manufacturer) as well as spindles.
Engine must be a VW type 1 and limited to the following:
Single Seat:
- Has a maximum of 2 valves per cylinder.
- Displacement must not exceed 1776cc.
- Limited to 1 carburetor; any manufacturer is acceptable.

Two Seat:
- Has a maximum of 2 valves per cylinder.
- Displacement must not exceed 1835cc.
- Limited to 1 carburetor; any manufacturer is acceptable.

This is a rear engine class only, and must be placed behind the axle centerline.

Rorty
09-20-2007, 11:57 PM
From this site...
http://www.desertrides.com/reference/racing_classes.php

Score Lite: Single or two seat vehicles limited to air cooled engines.

Aka: 1100 (BITD)
Horsepower: 135 Single-seat, 150 Two-seat
Wheel Travel: 12-18 Front, 18-24 Rear
Weight: 1650-2100
Top Speed: 90
Cost New: $40,000-80,000
Cost Per Prep: $3,500-7,000

Basic Rules: Front suspension is limited to VW Type configuration; suspension must be of the twin beam, trialing arm type. Front and rear trailing arms are open(length, width, and manufacturer) as well as spindles.
Engine must be a VW type 1 and limited to the following:
Single Seat:
- Has a maximum of 2 valves per cylinder.
- Displacement must not exceed 1776cc.
- Limited to 1 carburetor; any manufacturer is acceptable.

Two Seat:
- Has a maximum of 2 valves per cylinder.
- Displacement must not exceed 1835cc.
- Limited to 1 carburetor; any manufacturer is acceptable.

This is a rear engine class only, and must be placed behind the axle centerline.

As per the heading, that's a SCORE Lite which is a full size car. We're talking about bike or sled powered Stadium Lites.

turbotexas
09-21-2007, 12:34 AM
yes sir I know that, I was just refering to the differences/similarities in horsepower and also seen the diferences in wieght...
I am no expert in horsepower... but torque output to the wheels on a motorcycle engine is more adjustable with different sprocket combos???
I think there is to much of a difference in opinion on what a lite is... Bug said it best...
Not the past???
Defineing stadium/desert lite... that's the problem...

greasemnky
09-21-2007, 12:42 AM
The same can be adjusted in your ody or pilot with clutching combinations. I think the physical size of the buggy has more to do with the defininiton then the motor. The class was intended to run indoor and tigher courses. So the size of the buggy will naturally limit certian motor set ups. My buggy is NOT ment for this type of racing, but it is a pilot size buggy with a 750, and I can tell you, the engine bay is very small. I don't think you could reliably do that size in a pilot sized car. So you either make the car a little bigger, or the motor a little smaller.

I can say, my 750, in a strait line against a rotax 583, I loose. Against a 440, about the same. You can get a TON of power from these small sled motors. I still like my shifter for the trails. But I can see the idea of smaller sled motor for this application.

I'd argue you have more adjustability with the CVT system. Remember, to put a 60-70T sprocket on a bike powered car, is going to take a lot of room. Not to mention, the chains tend to fail. And in a racing series, these will be built to be reliable.

Rorty
09-21-2007, 01:06 AM
... but torque output to the wheels on a motorcycle engine is more adjustable with different sprocket combos???

Correct, but the torque multiplication of a bike engine/gearbox and final drive unit is still no comparrison of the torque output from a warm VW engine and its gearbox.

I think we can take it as read that we're discussing the little Stadium Lites such as the Briggs type cars that K-fab just bought a few of.

ultraman
09-21-2007, 01:16 AM
How about an under 500cc class for the stock and warmed over pilot/odysseys , and others?Then these cars could also run in the bigger engine class if they feel they are competetive.Just throwing out some idea's.

Bugpac
09-21-2007, 06:43 AM
The same can be adjusted in your ody or pilot with clutching combinations. I think the physical size of the buggy has more to do with the defininiton then the motor. The class was intended to run indoor and tigher courses. So the size of the buggy will naturally limit certian motor set ups. My buggy is NOT ment for this type of racing, but it is a pilot size buggy with a 750, and I can tell you, the engine bay is very small. I don't think you could reliably do that size in a pilot sized car. So you either make the car a little bigger, or the motor a little smaller.

I can say, my 750, in a strait line against a rotax 583, I loose. Against a 440, about the same. You can get a TON of power from these small sled motors. I still like my shifter for the trails. But I can see the idea of smaller sled motor for this application.

I'd argue you have more adjustability with the CVT system. Remember, to put a 60-70T sprocket on a bike powered car, is going to take a lot of room. Not to mention, the chains tend to fail. And in a racing series, these will be built to be reliable.

you are way undergeared, you could easily smoke a 583 with that motor....

Bugpac
09-21-2007, 06:45 AM
How about an under 500cc class for the stock and warmed over pilot/odysseys , and others?Then these cars could also run in the bigger engine class if they feel they are competetive.Just throwing out some idea's.

Screw that, I have every intention to whip some ass with my 440, and a properly tuned and built chassis.... [smilie=biggrin.gif]

minibajaman
09-21-2007, 12:26 PM
After giving it some more thought, forget the engine limits for now. *There will be trouble just getting enough people to come out and race in the first place, let alone for all of them to meet the specific engine rules since everybody uses something different. *Maybe it's best to start open and restrict it down later or make separate classes if there are enough buggies racing.

Limiting size and weight is important to keep the vehicles in the same general category of "Lite". *But the general trend is larger engined vehicles are larger in size and heavier in weight. *So if someone brings a buggy with a 140 hp engine but it weighs 1000 lbs, power weight ratio is 7.15 lbs/hp. *If I build a car that is 600 lbs and 80 hp, then it's 7.5 lbs/hp. *Not to mention the smaller buggy is more maneuverable and will probably spend less time wasting power by spinning the tires. *So in actual racing, they should be fairly close matched.

nutnbolt2002
09-21-2007, 12:40 PM
I think now that you should be allowed to race what you have brought to the track, as long as it is found save, you will need the numbers. If this style of racing catches on let it evolve, who knows what it will look like in say 2 years.

AtvNut
09-22-2007, 11:52 AM
Seems like that is what everyone has been doing at the tracks we race at anyhow... "run what ya brung and lets have some fun"

greasemnky
09-22-2007, 01:05 PM
[quote="greasemnky\";p=\"45102":1z8tzikf]The same can be adjusted in your ody or pilot with clutching combinations. I think the physical size of the buggy has more to do with the defininiton then the motor. The class was intended to run indoor and tigher courses. So the size of the buggy will naturally limit certian motor set ups. My buggy is NOT ment for this type of racing, but it is a pilot size buggy with a 750, and I can tell you, the engine bay is very small. I don't think you could reliably do that size in a pilot sized car. So you either make the car a little bigger, or the motor a little smaller.

I can say, my 750, in a strait line against a rotax 583, I loose. Against a 440, about the same. You can get a TON of power from these small sled motors. I still like my shifter for the trails. But I can see the idea of smaller sled motor for this application.

I'd argue you have more adjustability with the CVT system. Remember, to put a 60-70T sprocket on a bike powered car, is going to take a lot of room. Not to mention, the chains tend to fail. And in a racing series, these will be built to be reliable.

you are way undergeared, you could easily smoke a 583 with that motor....[/quote:1z8tzikf]



Probably true, but check out my carrier next time we go to baldwin. If you have any ideas on getting a bigger sprocket back there, let me know!! I'm thinking I may have to lengthen by buggy, but I really like the short wheel base. I think I under estimate what that 750 can do.



[quote="ultraman\";p=\"45104":1z8tzikf]How about an under 500cc class for the stock and warmed over pilot/odysseys , and others?Then these cars could also run in the bigger engine class if they feel they are competetive.Just throwing out some idea's.

Screw that, I have every intention to whip some w00ter with my 440, and a properly tuned and built chassis.... [smilie=biggrin.gif]
[/quote:1z8tzikf][smilie=wbounce.gif] *LOL I'm not sayin nuffin *[smilie=icon_bolt.gif]

LiveWire
09-26-2007, 08:39 AM
How about an under 500cc class for the stock and warmed over pilot/odysseys , and others?Then these cars could also run in the bigger engine class if they feel they are competetive.Just throwing out some idea's.

500cc single pipe and single carb
60" on width

70" wide on the larger class

s27sam
04-06-2009, 08:25 PM
I've read through this thread, and the engine section, was there ever any decision about what the motor limits would be? Same as everyone else, I'd hate to build a buggy and find out I picked too big or small of an engine.
Thanks,
Sam

greasemnky
04-06-2009, 08:48 PM
I think the idea, like so many before, kinda died. Expecially now. Be curious to see how many races take place this year. Seems like a lot of tracks are running shortened scheduals.

ProtoDie
04-09-2009, 08:43 AM
We have 3 cars that consistantly showed to race in Michigan for the past 3 years. Last year,,,,it was pretty much just us 3 at every race

Tough to get more people racing, so it is more on the size of the car & not the CC's.

We are building & racing to specs,,,,Max 70" wide by 120" max length


600cc single seater
1000cc 2 seater

We are building 2 seat buggies that we will race with our single seaters.
They will probably weigh in at 1100lbs where the single seat is 930lbs
So I am putting a 1000cc in it.

If you have anything even close to these sizes,,,I am sure you will always be able to race

s27sam
04-09-2009, 05:32 PM
HI, by close to these sizes do you mean the physical dimensions or the engine size or both? I've heard from some people that although I won't need all the power of a 750cc or a 1000cc, the torque is nice. I plan on building a 1 seater (smaller than 70"x120"), and its not likely that I'll race it much if at all, but if I get the chance I'd like to at least be able to.
Thanks,
Sam

ProtoDie
04-09-2009, 05:41 PM
I meant physical size, width & length. You can only drive a corner as fast as your buggy can handle it, and stick. Which is in your suspension, and handling ,,,,not your motor.

More motor may have you driving into the corner faster than your car can handle, which may be a slower lap time. So 60hp to 200hp,,,,sure:)

s27sam
04-09-2009, 08:16 PM
Thanks a lot, That will help while I'm in the planning/gathering stages, while the changes are cheaper.
Sam