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THUMPCRAFT
09-16-2007, 02:18 PM
Why no efi allowed? that takes alot of the sport bike engines out of the running?

hero_saku39
09-16-2007, 04:12 PM
I think those are old(er) rules from the Austrailian org. TORC. *I would think that today for our purposes that fi will be allowed considering that most late model (within 5-7 years) bike engines are fi.

General comments for everyone.

agree? disagree?

I think we should consider that redneck home builders (like me) may make up a large portion of these classes in the future and plan a sub class around this?

Bugpac
09-16-2007, 04:13 PM
No efi? wtf, that puts kfabs briggs cars out right off the bat with the 500 yamys, I didnt notice were efi was mentioned, i think that is obserd if it was....

hero_saku39
09-16-2007, 04:23 PM
No efi? wtf, that puts kfabs briggs cars out right off the bat with the 500 yamys, I didnt notice were efi was mentioned, i think that is obserd if it was....

It was in the long post here:

http://www.minibuggy.net/modules.php?na ... pic&t=2930 (http://www.minibuggy.net/modules.php?name=Forums&file=viewtopic&t=2930)

It is near the bottom under "Induction" just below engine specs for Open class.....Those are the TORC specs from Austrailia. Older specs?

"Motor:

i) Engines may be either single or multi-cylinder, but must be from an Odyssey, Pilot or chain-drive motorcycle, commonly available from an Australian retailer.
ii) Vehicles may have only one engine, which is to be mounted at the rear of the driver.
Maximum of 1100cc *4 stroke
Maximum of 650cc *2 stroke
Only the rear wheels may be driven.

Induction:

Forced induction, or fuel injection are not permitted. Negative manifold pressure at the engine is compulsory. "

Pacman
09-16-2007, 04:36 PM
i) Engines may be either single or multi-cylinder, but must be from an Odyssey, Pilot or chain-drive motorcycle, commonly available from an Australian retailer.


So we are going to have to get our engines from Australia? *[smilie=shocker.gif] Not really......if you read back in the other thread K-fab had mentioned that he had gotten the Australian specs and was going to post them so we could use them as a base and change what is needed to match our needs...I would ASSUME that these are those specs......at least I hope we don't have to get our engines from Aus....shipping will be a killer...not to mention that the engines only run in the left lane of the highway and not the right! [smilie=mhihi.gif]

hero_saku39
09-16-2007, 04:49 PM
Yes, those ARE THE TORC AUSTRALIA SPECS.

THUMPCRAFT
09-16-2007, 05:32 PM
is there a limit on # of cylinders? or valves?

Pacman
09-16-2007, 06:21 PM
is there a limit on # of cylinders? or valves?

No! There is nothing yet!!! We are in the development stage right now......this is the time to throw out the idea's as to what we need to have as rules.....no rules have been set.....what's posted above are the TORC Australian rules.....something to read and comment on so we can come up with rules of our own! [smilie=banghead.gif]

Rorty
09-16-2007, 07:11 PM
Motor:
i) Engines may be either single or multi-cylinder, but must be from an Odyssey, Pilot or chain-drive motorcycle, commonly available from an Australian retailer.
ii) Vehicles may have only one engine, which is to be mounted at the rear of the driver.
Maximum of 1100cc *4 stroke
Maximum of 650cc *2 stroke
Only the rear wheels may be driven.

Induction:
Forced induction, or fuel injection are not permitted. Negative manifold pressure at the engine is compulsory. "

I sent K-fab a digital copy of the 1999 TORC Handbook and at that period, even though FI bikes were common on the roads, not many had filtered down to the wreckers' yards. There were a few FI engines around and anyone with a big budget could have availed themselves of one and gained a competitive edge, thus the rule banning EFI engines. IIRC, the rule was ammended to include FI engines a couple of years later when they became more commonplace.

It's all about keeping a level playing field so no competitor can gain an advantage over another aside from superior vehicle preparation and driving skill.

hero_saku39
09-16-2007, 07:24 PM
Everyone chime in on what you are using or plan to use for a car this size.

It seems that most are using/plan on using about 500-600cc sled and bike engines. *How many are using 2 strokes? *[smilie=puke.gif]

Edit: *My brother and I plan on building two. *One will have 600cc fi mc engine. *Leaning towards cvt for the other so comparison and development will be easier.

Rorty
09-16-2007, 07:45 PM
I believe 110-130 BHP is about ideal for stadium racing, so 600cc bike or sled engines would be excellent choices for their power to weight performance. The Suzuki TL1000 would be my first choice though purely for the low end grunt out of the corners.

K-fab
09-16-2007, 07:46 PM
Thanks Rorty for clearing that up.

The rules were put up as a general idea of guidelines for us to follow. *Obviously they have some older issues that need to be addressed as we progress.

EFI will be allowed in our new rules.

I made mention in Yoshi's thread, where he's asking about an engine for a small buggy, about the fact that two strokes used to be the norm, but now four strokes are taking over everything - and EFI is beginning to show up on everything too - The Suzuki RMZ450 motocross bike (argh!) is EFI equipped on the '08 model. *All four of the Japanese MFG's are producing quads w/EFI as are Can-Am and I believe Polaris. *Probably more too - I'm not a quad follower.

It's a no-brainer, as it's the way things are headed.

On another note: *Forced air induction - turbo, supercharger and add on HP like Nitrous - no, these should not be allowed. *The majority of off road sanctioning bodies do not allow any of those and I believe we should follow these guidelines too.


is there a limit on # of cylinders? or valves?
No and I don't think there should be - well, maybe a limit of 4 cylinders. *I can't see a Goldwing engine being stuffed into a Lite and the vehicle still being "light".

With Yamaha using 5 valves since the early 80's, and the others using two, three and four valve setups over the years, I believe that we should be open to allowing any modern engine valve train style.

We need to be open minded in what's available for our machines. *The majority of people are going to use m/c or sled engines - m/c are generally four cylinder and four or five valve systems. *V-twins are becoming popular on the large bore sport bikes like the RC51 and the TL1000.

Sleds are both two stroke and four stroke. *They range from twins to triples to four cylinders and they, too, can have (four strokes) four or five valve systems.

As long as we can figure our a way to keep the machines classed (there will probably end up being more than a couple different classes) accordingly, the power plants should be allowed to be quite varied.

I will say that we should probably limit the open class to 1000 cc. *Sorry, but the Hyabusa in a Lite is just flat dangerous and overkill. *Even something like an R1 or an RC51 powerplant is probably on the limit of overkill in a lite.

There really should be a limit to the amount of HP that can be put into a Lite. *It's a safety issue, it's a driver ability issue and having too much HP in a little car is really dangerous. *It will get you in trouble VERY quickly. *These little cars are already lightning quick - but getting ridiculous, especially in the aspect of trying to race is dangerous.

We want this racing to be fun, safe and close. *It needs to grab the audience's attention and put on a show. *As mentioned in some posts, Rhino Races are fun to watch because the racing's close and tight - maybe slow, but good fun viewing. *Look at the interest they have drawn. *If we can get Lites half the attention the SXS stuff gets we'd be in and set. *As Bill Easterly (the guy that ran the PACE races) said, "Give them a SHOW!"

Bugpac
09-16-2007, 07:53 PM
so whats the limit, we need a poll? * *600cc manufacturer label, 4 cyl max....

Rorty
09-16-2007, 08:10 PM
I would be inclined to set the engine limit by HP and not capacity. Someone may want to run an older 1000cc toaster that only puts out 90 HP.

hero_saku39
09-16-2007, 08:17 PM
I'd agree with 600cc as that will keep performance levels equal/manageable while keeping cost's down as the 600cc engines are 1/2 or 1/3 of what the more popular engines are going. *(MC engines anyway) Should there be OEM parts limitations for engine performance parts as in SBK?

Should this be a "middle" class with a 1000cc limit open class?

What will the purpose of the sub classes be? Cost to play. *The cars won't be drastically different so I see cost as the only dividing factor.

Bugpac
09-16-2007, 08:21 PM
I think you are going to have a hard time finding enuff people to fill one class myself, i think the limit should be pilots/350,s, and up to 600cc....non stock motor pilots would race in the up to 600 class....

hero_saku39
09-16-2007, 08:26 PM
I would be inclined to set the engine limit by HP and not capacity. Someone may want to run an older 1000cc toaster that only puts out 90 HP.

That would be the "fairest" way to go but it seems infinitely complicated. *Roughly three decades of four major manufacturers making inacurate hp claims.....the only way to verify would be to provide a dyno sheet at the starting line.???????? *Thoughts?

hero_saku39
09-16-2007, 08:27 PM
I think you are going to have a hard time finding enuff people to fill one class myself, i think the limit should be pilots/350,s, and up to 600cc....non stock motor pilots would race in the up to 600 class....

Yeah............one solid class may be best to start.

PilotHawK
09-16-2007, 08:46 PM
This is where the weight limit becomes a factor. You can't build a 1000 pound car with a 200 pound bike motor in it. Weight is a factor! In order to keep in the spirit of stadium "lites" the cars should not be allowed more than 600 cc displacement. 2-stroke or 4-stroke. Anything else becomes a different class entirely. With the advances in 4-stroke technology 2-strokes don't have much of *a distinct power advantage over the 4-strokes.

While we should want to keep the rules as broad and inclusive as possible. We also seriously need to think about the venues that will be available to race. Nobody needs or could use a 150hp firebreathing monster with any kind of effectiveness in a short course environment.

As an example, I watched K-fab spank a full on race buggy at stone city a few years ago in the deztaz....he was running a 1000cc triple, and spanked a buggy running a full race vw motor. in the 1600-2000 cc range.

In the lite class displacement does not mean everything.

Like I said in my original post which seems to have snowballed. This isn't about who has the deepest pockets, but more of an attempt to simply get people out racing in an environment in which they can be competitive without selling the house.

hero_saku39
09-16-2007, 09:17 PM
That all sounds logical. *A minimum weight with maximum engine cc will force everyone to be pretty close in power to weight ratio. *The one guy that wants to run a 25 year old KZ1000 can surely afford an $800 late model 600 if he can afford to build the chassis.

minibajaman
09-16-2007, 11:37 PM
The Redline buggies are using the Weber engine that is 750cc EFI and makes around 80hp, so I think any restrictions should include that since it is the closet thing to a "production" lite for now. *And it's an engine I'm considering using in a future build [smilie=biggrin.gif].

hero_saku39
09-17-2007, 06:33 AM
The Redline buggies are using the Weber engine that is 750cc EFI and makes around 80hp, so I think any restrictions should include that since it is the closet thing to a "production" lite for now. *And it's an engine I'm considering using in a future build [smilie=biggrin.gif].

I have to change my mind again. I agree cause I was looking at some bigger rotax engines too.

K-fab
09-17-2007, 08:11 AM
I think you are going to have a hard time finding enuff people to fill one class myself, i think the limit should be pilots/350,s, and up to 600cc....non stock motor pilots would race in the up to 600 class....
This sounds pretty valid and straight forward.

Good points being made.

[quote="Rorty\";p=\"44467":7o7kydve]I would be inclined to set the engine limit by HP and not capacity. Someone may want to run an older 1000cc toaster that only puts out 90 HP.

That would be the "fairest" way to go but it seems infinitely complicated. *Roughly three decades of four major manufacturers making inacurate hp claims.....the only way to verify would be to provide a dyno sheet at the starting line.???????? *Thoughts?[/quote:7o7kydve]
Engine displacement versus output needs to have a closer look.

Splitting hairs over an old KZ1000 making 90 hp (or 100 - or what ever it makes) versus a new(er) 600 making 130ish has merit, but stating "dyno sheets on the line" is a bit overkill.

In general, it's pretty easy to know and/or find out what sort of hp engines make. - heck, watch the vehicles run on the track during practice....

The older engines, while may not have had dyno sheets available as easily as new engines, still are something that should be looked at for viable power plants. *I believe it's quite obvious that an older air cooled engine are not going to make anywhere near what the new engines do.

In 1985 our FZ750 race bikes (AMA Superbike class) squeaked out 124 hp - full race engines with a combination of Yamaha Race Kit parts and aftermarket goodies all tuned on the dyno. *Now a bone stock 600 makes 135, so would it be unfair to have the old FZ race engine run against the 600? *Nah.

Put the focus of the limitations more on HP than displacement. *It will be a bit sketchy in a way - but I believe if we work on staying in the 130-135 hp range (modern 600 m/c, 600 twin sled two stroke - even the 1000cc triple sled engine Yamaha makes) as a max power allowed, it will probably work for the general idea of the rules and class.

If we end up with a couple classes - say Pilot/Oddy, 600 and/or Mod and someone enters in the Pilot class and just walks away from everyone else, then that person obviously needs to be bumped to the next class. *Using a little bit of common sense and fairness can go a long way.

We have to work together on this and thus far I think it's going very, very well.

Great debating guys, keep it coming!!!

nutnbolt2002
09-17-2007, 09:06 AM
Can you not just use a stock 600 motorcycle engine, and thats it? I think that you are going to have to limit the engine or it will alway be a problem.

standfast
09-17-2007, 04:26 PM
I agree with nutnbolt, there should be a limit. *Limit it to 600cc, keep the cost down. *You can get a newer 600cc EFI bike motor pretty cheap these days. *If you can't afford a $1000-1500 engine you aren't going to afford to travel to a race or even build the rest of the car to begin with. *600cc seems like PLENTY of displacement. *JMO

slowbriggs
09-17-2007, 05:24 PM
I would say not to limit the two stroke cc's to 600.

Many drakarts have built motors/swapped out motors because a 600 is not enough. *The EEE (500 sled motor) I play with along with my briggs car (700 sled motor) are not overkill in *power. *Yes, it does get up and go, but my tire selection is very very important. Maybe to someone that has been riding a ody or even a modded pilot they could appear to be super powerful.

There are also ton's of build ups you can do to a modern day sled motor.
For instance, my 700 is based off a 600 bottom end and is also shared with an 800. *I could build the 600 to 190 hp by boring, stroking, porting, and head work. *Now that is more than my stock 700 (138 hp). *So, I could buy the 600 head put it on my engine and you could not tell the difference unless you ran some numbers?

A 500 in a briggs, EEE, mirage, are turds. *The chassis are much heavier than a pilot and the engine's don't make any torque.

I also think you can run a much bigger mc engine against smaller engine using CVT. *The CVT always has you in the power band and there is no shifting to slow you down.

Traction is also hard to come by with the added torque of a bike engine.

If you limit cc's to 800, then you can include all your popular bike engine's for a lites class, all your popular sled engines of recent production. *

Maybe make anything over 500cc must be stock long block engine. *Anything under 500 cc can be modded as the driver see's fit. *Most people that race build up what they have. *

If someone wants to race a pilot/ody they need to bring their machine to modern day technology/performance. *They can add a sled motor, do a 500 kit etc. *
Companies that are going to build lite's in the future are most lilely not going to use a 400cc single cylinder engine. *

Don't base a race series on almost 20 yr old specs. *

Then there is the comparison of rotax with the rotary valve vs piston port engines, vs reed valve engines.

I edited this post so it was more readable - hope you don't mind, but it was hard to get through. - K-fab

Bugpac
09-17-2007, 05:45 PM
I think 750 is a more round about number, 140 hp.....In a bike motor....I am also here to tell you, you will never ever get that power to the ground, the 600cc car is having a hard time doing so....If you limit tire width not height as i think somewere i seen 10" wide rim, then you will never ever get 140hp to the ground....if you run an atv tire all you will ever do is throw roost, if you run a big tire you still will throw a roost.....I think efforts should be put foremost on brakes, and limit the ccs to 750 to acomidate the redline that we may never see on the market anyway....

Here is my suggestion, minimum 3/8 thick 10" rotors up front on 601cc and above, 8" 1/4" thick *600 cc and under.....Same *goes for the rear.....In single disk....

I also feel strongly about adding disk breaks to snow powered pilots, Yes it puts odypilots in trouble, but i can always help him.... [smilie=biggrin.gif] Daves breaks are fine for him, a green driver needs to be able to stop when he overdrives the straightway...

opsled
09-17-2007, 08:50 PM
Again I don't own or race buggys and didn't read these Aussie rules but if you are going to allow both 2 and 4 strokes I think you will want to do some sort of HP limit. In the sled world 1000cc 4 strokes (Yamaha) are usually classed with 700cc 2 strokes in stock classes depending on the sanctioning body. They usually use a combination of HP vs weight to determine how things are classed. If you limit cc only in a race type application and don't allow boost, 2 strokes will have an advantage in a lot of cases. If you allow mods but no boost you could get 150hp, 600cc 2 strokes if they only need to last for a few races and if you have a competitor with lots of cash he could have many engines ready and waiting in the trailer to keep his ride going. If you are talking a 1000cc limit with mods and no boost you will see 200+hp 2 strokes that I think would be completely uncontrollable in somthing as small as these stadium cars. Things could get real crazy because there are so many possibilities for very high HP 2 strokes that people could end up looking like K-fab's leg from head to toe.

These "big bore" twins being built today by Polaris, Ski Doo and Actic Cat all can be built to be pushing the 200HP mark and could probably make a few races before needing replacment so someone with enough cash could ruin the competition. As an example Yamaha came out with a 750cc, 4 cylinder 2 stroke in 1992 that completely destroyed the competition in FIII oval racing in the hands of guys like Tim Bender. With the platform he had to work with and the money he had to back him up the only racing was for second place on down unless there were 2 of them in the race. Then it was usually Yamaha 1 and 2 and everybody else fought for what was left. It was so bad that 4 cylinder 2 strokes have been banned since 1993 from FIII and 92 was just the first year of production for that engine. It was improved and bumped to an 800cc in 95. If you start allowing engines like that and other large cc two strokes without a HP limit you could knock the average builder/racer right out box and make bike engines obsolete unless they are boosted which all adds up to more $ for the builder/racer. You could turn good racing into a competition of who's got the most money and not who's got the most tallent very quickly.

* You guys might want to consider a HP limit along with a different cc limit for 2 and 4 strokes and mabe an engine list of allowable and outlawed engines. There are some exotics out there like Olaf Aaen's V-4's and that 4 cylinder Yammie I mentioned that arn't readily available or would be out of the financial grasp of most guys. And if you don't do something to limit mods especially on 2 strokes you could have some redicules creations showing up. I have seen Rotax 670's turned into a 4 cylinder, that 750 Yamaha 4 cylinder turned into a 6 cylinder, the "Yamalarus" which is a 3 cylinder Polaris with Yamaha cylinders that is either a 510 or 660cc depending on the cylinders and many other home built creations. There was even a guy that built an 880cc 4 cylinder 2 stroke out of a 1977 Yamaha 440cc engine that was 100hp with just 2 cylinders in stock form. They were capable of 120+hp and are very rare. They were so light and fast that even today they are banned from stock 440 in sanctioned drag racing and usually only allowed in mod 500 if at all. Thats just a few examples and there are many more from many other manufacturers.

* *Just some things to ponder, Phil (opsled)

odypilots
09-17-2007, 09:44 PM
I just don't see how you can base engine rules on HP. There is no way to check them. You could estimate HP based on engine work, but then you would have to tear down engines, measure cams, check compression, etc.

If anyone shows up with a giant killer, just bump them up to a new class, and have a 4 car minimum. That way they take themselves out of the game until 3 more people join them.

The Redline is a twin, which should have a higher displacement limit then a modern 4 cylinder 4 stroke.

You either need really tight rules, in which case you won't get enough cars without a company building enough for everyone, or some loose rules with the ability to outlaw people who exceed the spirit of the rules.

Most people aren't racers, even many who think they are, so to get a field of 20 cars to show up, you need 100 cars that fit the rules in that part of the country to allow for people who have to fix their car, go to a wedding, want to take a break, etc.

Bugpac
09-17-2007, 09:53 PM
I agree.... Run what you brung and call it good, limit length, width, and safety issues to start, any non pilot chassis will have a set of rules for structure and call it good....Maybe put a 1000 cc limit on engine size....

THUMPCRAFT
09-18-2007, 12:47 AM
There should be an open class and a lites class

LITES have cc limit of 750cc 4 stroke or two stroke (twin cylinder max for two stroke, and Four cylinder max for four stroke)
efi allowed, but no turbos, or super chargers

Open Class cc limit of 1100cc

just some ideas

nutnbolt2002
09-18-2007, 01:21 AM
Or you could run anything that you bring. Sooner or later the predominate engine or engines would be the one everyone would want.

Pacman
09-18-2007, 09:27 AM
Open Class cc limit of 1100cc


If there's a limit....then it's no longer Open Class! [smilie=boogie.gif]
Open Class should be just that.....Open!

nutnbolt2002
09-18-2007, 10:06 AM
I think that if you don't peg the engine, and keep them stock, you are going to have the problem with the one that has the money has the advantage. If this type of racing catch on, (which i believe will) Manufactures that are building cars now will also build a race car version.

Look at Nascar, they use 4 different engines but all can't exceed I believe 354 cu.in. and it close racing, which the fans will love.

Bugpac
09-18-2007, 05:36 PM
And who is going to police the engines? Would a claimer series be adequate, the top dog with all the money is probbaly going to always win, look at nascar..... I dont agree on the 2 smoke 2 cyl 4 stroke 4 cyl either, that rx1 or apex cvt car is going to woop some ass, i dont see how it would even compare to a 2 cyl two stroke, Get a cc limit and be done, let the owner tune and fiddle to make it fast thats racing....

As a wise man says around bobs track, the creme will always rise to the top....

Desertkarts
09-18-2007, 05:44 PM
There should be an open class and a lites class

LITES have cc limit of 750cc 4 stroke or two stroke (twin cylinder max for two stroke, and Four cylinder max for four stroke)
efi allowed, but no turbos, or super chargers

Open Class cc limit of 1100cc

just some ideas
Why exclude the 1300 cc Busa? Seems to be the predominant engine being used. The guys spending money on these engines might be the only ones that show up and pay entry fees...

K-fab
09-18-2007, 09:41 PM
[quote="THUMPCRAFT\";p=\"44668":280puotd]There should be an open class and a lites class

LITES have cc limit of 750cc 4 stroke or two stroke (twin cylinder max for two stroke, and Four cylinder max for four stroke)
efi allowed, but no turbos, or super chargers

Open Class cc limit of 1100cc

just some ideas
Why exclude the 1300 cc Busa? Seems to be the predominant engine being used. The guys spending money on these engines might be the only ones that show up and pay entry fees...[/quote:280puotd]
Because that much hp in a lite sized car is ridiculous and dangerous. *As you're fully aware, being that you live(d?) 15 miles from the Dunes, there are complete and total idiots dying in 750hp sand cars because they have no clue how to handle 300 hp, much less 750. *"I want the baddest, fastest car you make" - and unfortunately they pay dearly for this idea.

Power gets you in trouble and the more power you have, the faster you get in trouble. *How many idiots on street bikes do you know that have tossed an R1 or 1000 GSXR or similar because "I wanted the fastest thing out there" - but had no clue just how quick/fast those things are??? *A buddy of mine just went through a rider's course to get his bike license (he's one of the best bike riders I know - street, dirt - he's talented, just never got a license). *One of the guys in the course was all stoked about getting his street bike license so he could go home and ride his new R1 - he'd NEVER BEEN ON A MOTORCYCLE BEFORE!!! *He's starting out on a KILLER and it's STUPID. *- I'm not knocking the bike either by calling it a killer, I'm just stating that it's like giving a 5 year old boy a loaded fully automatic weapon and expecting the kid to not get hurt.

Lites don't need anything above about 130 - 135 hp.

The whole idea of trying to get a Lites rules set up is to make a group of vehicles that can go play on some (and hopefully more) tracks together. *It seems that everyone's lost focus of this.

A Honda Pilot makes 36 hp stock. *It can be built up to about 68 with the stock jug, 72 with a 500cc conversion - a 500 moves! *Mine would run just at 75 at Crandon and let me tell you, it was on the edge of scary and dangerous. * People are putting 600 sled engines in them and having Pilots that can hit close to 100 - it's nuts. *The machine's not designed, nor is it safe for those types of speeds.

The new Redline's using a 750cc engine - but it makes 80 hp. *It's not about the size of the engine - it's about the performance and output. *Some of the Draks out there can run 90ish (maybe more) - they're a bit longer than a Pilot and can handle the higher speeds better, but still - that kind of speed in a small car is getting on the edge.

The idea of the Lites is to have a class of vehicles that can go play together, have fun together and not be money pits because they need more hp to beat the other guy. *Get them similar in power to weight ratio and let's go have fun.

I'm not ranting or on a soap box, just trying to point out that the whole idea of this class is to get similar sized & powered cars out on the track having fun. *The fun needs to be safe, though and a busa in a lite is not safe.

Bugpac
09-18-2007, 09:46 PM
after that said k fab, my vote is 600cc, 2 stroke 4 stroke whatever it be....

ultraman
09-18-2007, 09:50 PM
I also believe 600cc is plenty, but i keep thinking the redline should not be excluded also.

Bugpac
09-18-2007, 09:54 PM
well maybe redline will have to retool, if you cant exlude some we will eventully be back to busa powered cars i believe.... At 17k the redline isnt made for inexpensive racing...IMO!!

nutnbolt2002
09-18-2007, 09:55 PM
Redline and other builders will build a 600 if there is a market.

ultraman
09-18-2007, 09:56 PM
Agreed [smilie=biggrin.gif]

K-fab
09-18-2007, 10:01 PM
The Redline is 80 hp. *750 cc or not - it's 80 hp...
600 bike engines are 130 or more.

The Redline should not be excluded because of engine size.

Limit the "general" hp, not the size.

How about 600cc four stroke four cylinders and 750 four stroke twins? *(isn't the Redline a twin?)

600 cc twin two strokes - period.

Two smokes are pretty easy to say "This is it"
but the four bangers are a tad more tricky... *Are any of the bike makers still making 750cc four cylinder bikes??? *Limit it to 750cc...

Bugpac
09-18-2007, 10:05 PM
I think a 750 gixxer is pushing 150 hp.....How about just saying 750cc redline revolt or power plant only....And looking at each individual machine as they come.....

K-fab
09-18-2007, 10:07 PM
Ah, there's an idea - 600cc as a general rule with the Weber 750 being allowed.

ultraman
09-18-2007, 10:07 PM
Why exclude the 2 stroke tripples?They don't make anymore hp then the 600cc sport bike engines.GSXR 750 makes about 140-150hp i believe.

K-fab
09-18-2007, 10:09 PM
I was thinking that the 750cc bikes were not made anymore - didn't realize they were and didn't realize they had that much hp...

I retract the 750 m/c idea.

600cc - and allow the Weber 750...

Bugpac
09-18-2007, 10:11 PM
Ah, there's an idea - 600cc as a general rule with the Weber 750 being allowed.

And any future type engines the make public claims to there hp.....I think a good rule of thumb, 600cc and or not to exeed 115 hp manufacturers specs.... that would put modified engines in the 130 range i think, most 600cc motors can be tuned via power commander etc to see 120-130, *a 600 cc 2 smoke modified twin is easily capable of 120-130....

ultraman
09-18-2007, 10:25 PM
Come on guys, allow tripples. Mine is rated at 115hp , and i can put 600 jugs on it. Your already making me put on front brakes [smilie=angry.gif] *[smilie=biggrin.gif]

opsled
09-18-2007, 10:29 PM
I was reading back through this thread and there were a couple of posts that came in while I was fumbling with my two typing fingers on my last post and I think Bug may be on to something in regards to this engine delema. He basicly said if you limit tire size you can limit engines because to much engine can just over power the tires/traction and could slow you down. I think he may be on to something with that idea. Tire size limits will cause builders to try to match HP to available traction and a high HP engine will be harder to control if it is over powering the machine, tires and track which I would think could slow you down. If that is true tire size and/or tread design could be a method of builders "self policeing" themselves on engine HP to achieve some sort of managable consistancy while racing.

* *Just more thoughts

* Phil (opsled)

ultraman
09-18-2007, 10:34 PM
Also i think torque numbers will play a bigger role on a short course then hp numbers.I'm sure the weber 750 double makes much more then my 600 tripple.

hero_saku39
09-18-2007, 10:48 PM
Also i think torque numbers will play a bigger role on a short course then hp numbers.I'm sure the weber 750 double makes much more then my 600 tripple.

I believe it's 60 ft. lbs.

hero_saku39
09-18-2007, 10:53 PM
why not just set the hp max to 130-140 hp range and any one that has an engine that comes close can petition for inclusion of that motor.

slowbriggs
09-19-2007, 06:59 AM
Why not just mandate a particular engine if you want to limit cc's, if you are afraid of power. *You are not dealing with little kids. *You are dealing with grown men that race because they love competition and speed. *Nobody wants to go 35 mph in a glorified go cart. * Limiting hp to 115 is way to low. *Stock 500's make close to that. *600's are over that hp. *If you limit hp to the 130-140 range then have a sheet at each race indicating what engine has what horsepower - that could work, as long as engines' are stock long blocks. *There are so many differences in hp, torque, and availablity in the 600 class that you can't limit it to 600 and have a fair/ even playing field unless you mandate one engine family.