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View Full Version : Should builders follow certain class rules?



PilotHawK
09-12-2007, 12:27 AM
I think a lot of us are building based on plans or whatever comes to mind. I have seen lots of questoins about how long, how wide, what powerplant, what tires etc. There are single seaters, 2 seaters, side by sides, midibuggy, etc. Pretty confusing isn't it? Something I think builders should try to do or maybe even they are already trying to do is try to follow the specs different organizations use for car safety when building, and a "rule book" would answer a lot of those questions.

Say I want to build a "stadium lite" I would want to build it to specs determined by the majority of racing organization requirements. Is there any place to find these requirements....a rule book per se? I would hate to finish a build with the intention of racing only to find out that my car wouldn't pass specs. This applies to all cars. We need a place here where we can access the information we need. We need an expert to develop a rules book for cars based on their experience with different organizations such as PACE, SCORE, CORR, etc.

I have been following lites for a number years, and I see a huge growth in the sport in the next few years. Just look at what the rhinos and trophy carts are doing. The kids driving these trophy carts will want to upgrade to something faster one day. Right now I don't think a "sanctioning body" governs a large race series for stadium lite vehicles. So in the interest of safety and uniformity we need to develop a set of rules that will be accepted by most race promoters. This will help us develop a set of cars that are race ready. This will also simplify things for builders and hobbyists because they would have a target to aim for in their build. Whether you plan on racing or not if you build a car to "race" specs you will be building a safe car, and as a bonus, you could race it if you ever wanted to.

Maybe I am thinking too broadly?? Sometime in the future there will be racing venues that want to open their tracks for mini buggies and when they do we need to be ahead of the game with a set of specs and rules that they can live with.

I apologize if this post seems rambling, but I think its something we could address now to help the sport in the future.

boilermaker
09-12-2007, 02:48 AM
I agree for the most part. Maybe what's needed is for the buggy building companies, designers,plans producers and all possible race organiations get together to work it out. But it aint gonna happen. What might happen is for someone with enough sence and determination to wade thru all the rule books and with, possibly some discussion all around,on this site and with buggy building companies,to hash out a set of build specs that would meet or beat all race organisations rules . One man, or maybe a very small group of very deterimined and driven men could do this i think.

Rorty
09-12-2007, 02:49 AM
In Australia, we used to run under TORC rules and regulations (which I was instrumental in revising and implementing when as Chief Scrutineer and later, President), even though we came under the CAMS (Confederation of Australian Motor Sport) umbrella. Now TORC is being forced to complying with the mainstream CAMS regulations.

In the US, as far as I can see, the various race series come and go and people and organisations were seemingly always falling out over rules etc., so there doesn't appear to be an easy answer.

There are currently quite a number of organisations in the US that, even though they aren't specifically mini buggy promoters, allow mini buggies to run at their events. Some simply require certain safety standards to be met and others mandate more fundamental aspects such as materials and chassis dimensions.

Often those materials regulations are carried over from other classes of much larger and heavier cars, penalising our little mini buggies (the use of 1.5" tube springs to mind). Unfortunately there's never been the same popularity or money involved in racing our smaller cars and we're therefore the poor cousins with virtually no voice.

I agree though, it would be fantastic if there were national guidelines for designers and builders because then not only would we all have some direction, but manufacturers would start making components specifically for our cars.

Desertkarts
09-12-2007, 03:12 AM
I know the answer. In the days of the Mini Mag you could spend $25,000 and still be in the way of the $5,000 Class 9 car. It's the short wheelbase that makes us slow. The original wheelbase spec was set by the Honda Pilot. There is more. Torque, tire size, fuel capacity and weight. But mostly MONEY.

Not enough torque to run long with the big boys. Stock Busa 1300 cc 175 HP / 98 lbs Torque. Stock VW 1600 cc 55 HP 150 lbs Torque.
Not enough interest. The current little car is the Rhino. Huge numbers of $25,000+ Rhinos are showing up and racing. Talk about slow! But the guys love 'em.

Starting order is based on fastest cars to the slowest. I think TT's and Class 1 is a political victory for the TRUCK Guys. This starting order was copied from race-dez.com
TT,1,SIT,10,8,PT,SL,1 2/1600, 5, 7, 5/1600, 7S, 7SX, SF, SM, 9, 3, JS1, JS 3, SPTTRUCK, SPTCAR, 11, SPT UTV

The most interesting thing for me is the 1/2-1600's start and finish before the Class 5's.
The Unlimited Baja Bug (Class 5) can run 3000 cc plus Porsche engines (Unlimited, Air Cooled) $15,000 Fortin gear box, (Unlimited $$$) Unlimited Travel (Beam Front Suspension)
Wheelbase limited to 109".
A 1600 car can run 1600 cc VW air cooled engine, stock length/ width front suspension, limited rear suspension (recently changed from stock dims' + 930 CV). VW transmision Unlimited wheelbase.

If the Class 5 has twice the displacement and twice the travel why are the 1600's faster?

Now look at the last 2 classes in the starting order. Class 11 and Sportsman UTV (Rhino) Google both. Stock $8,000 VW's start before $25,000 Rhinos.

The comparisons don't stop SL Score Lites limited to VW 1835 cc faster than Unlimited Bajas...

I'm a real race fan and a fan of the mini. It would be cool to see our class improve but it will not happen until the wheelbase is stretched.

Rorty
09-12-2007, 04:18 AM
I know the answer. In the days of the Mini Mag you could spend $25,000 and still be in the way of the $5,000 Class 9 car. It's the short wheelbase that makes us slow. The original wheelbase spec was set by the Honda Pilot. There is more. Torque, tire size, fuel capacity and weight. But mostly MONEY.

Not enough torque to run long with the big boys. Stock Busa 1300 cc 175 HP / 98 lbs Torque. Stock VW 1600 cc 55 HP 150 lbs Torque.
Not enough interest. The current little car is the Rhino. Huge numbers of $25,000+ Rhinos are showing up and racing. Talk about slow! But the guys love 'em.

Starting order is based on fastest cars to the slowest. I think TT's and Class 1 is a political victory for the TRUCK Guys. This starting order was copied from race-dez.com
TT,1,SIT,10,8,PT,SL,1 2/1600, 5, 7, 5/1600, 7S, 7SX, SF, SM, 9, 3, JS1, JS 3, SPTTRUCK, SPTCAR, 11, SPT UTV

The most interesting thing for me is the 1/2-1600's start and finish before the Class 5's.
The Unlimited Baja Bug (Class 5) can run 3000 cc plus Porsche engines (Unlimited, Air Cooled) $15,000 Fortin gear box, (Unlimited $$$) Unlimited Travel (Beam Front Suspension)
Wheelbase limited to 109".
A 1600 car can run 1600 cc VW air cooled engine, stock length/ width front suspension, limited rear suspension (recently changed from stock dims' + 930 CV). VW transmision Unlimited wheelbase.

If the Class 5 has twice the displacement and twice the travel why are the 1600's faster?

Now look at the last 2 classes in the starting order. Class 11 and Sportsman UTV (Rhino) Google both. Stock $8,000 VW's start before $25,000 Rhinos.

The comparisons don't stop SL Score Lites limited to VW 1835 cc faster than Unlimited Bajas...

I'm a real race fan and a fan of the mini. It would be cool to see our class improve but it will not happen until the wheelbase is stretched.

Quite a detailed post there Greg, but your last sentence was the most poignant: "It would be cool to see our class improve but it will not happen until the wheelbase is stretched".

The thing is, if we stretch our wheelbases, then we're no longer mini buggies and if we wanted to race bigger cars, then, as you have illustrated, there are plenty of competitive classes to choose from.

http://i20.photobucket.com/albums/b237/Rorty/PIX/shoot_foot.gif

LiveWire
09-12-2007, 06:57 AM
Desert racing and short course are two different things. Short wheel base cars do well on short course. Since I have no desert near me, I am biased toward short course.

There is a start: http://www.greatlakesoffroad.com/rules.html

I guess it does not have length and width limits on there. The width limit was 68", but got bumped to 70" a couple years back. Width is limited to make sure people can pass. Length does not really hurt the other drivers and is track dependent if an advantage or disadvantage.

ProtoDie
09-12-2007, 07:23 AM
This is nothing sanctioned, but a few years back, a bunch of the guys at the pilot-odyssey board were working on some racing rules or specs to use when the stadium races came to town.

We worked to most of these specs when designing our buggies.

I will try to attach a word doc

K-fab
09-12-2007, 09:21 AM
Lites in the desert are unfortunately a bit of a joke. *Yea, they can be fun and I've seen a few Pilots at a couple Whiplash races, but in general, we need to focus on short course style racing for the Lites. *If you want to desert race a Lite, then you need to talk to the sanctioning body, beg and plead your case.

Short Course racing is, at least to me, any track that is a closed loop. *(No, an 80 mile loop like BITD runs is NOT short course) *Length can vary from the fair grounds sized track to something along the size of the Lake Elsinore Grand Prix (7 miles?) * In general, I would consider a short course track one that 90% can be seen from the stands or pits or area directly around the track. *Lake Elsinore would be the outer ends of the limits.

The original Lites rules were based off the old Mickey Thompson Grand Prix rules. *They were pretty tight - OAL, OAW, engine displacement, weight and the likes. *They were base around the old 350 Odyssey, to a point (or so I understand - I may be very wrong).

I believe that SODA (now CORR) used those plans as a base and then allowed a few changes (guessing here, as I never ran SODA) - wheel base, width, engine displacement for the vehicles as the speeds at Crandon versus the speeds in a stadium are drastically different. *(I saw 35-40 mph max in the stadiums while hitting right around 70 mph at Crandon)

When PACE started the racing in 98 they seemed to use rules that were sort of a cross breed of the two sets of rules. * It limited things like Drakarts, though as they were too long, (wide?) and the engine displacement was too large.

From what I've seen on the various boards (I've not been to a Lites race in 7 years), most of the race tracks are open to the rules to a point. *Their main concern is safety (which is very good), but they allow the races to sort of juggle out the classes and make the rules according to the vehicles that show up.

With enough of us playing in the Lites class(es), and with the interest it's starting to generate again, the smart thing to do would be take a poll of sorts and talk to those that are racing and see what the specs of each person's Lite is.

Draks and LT 500 powered Pilots appear to be able to run together well (at least Radical Rich's pilot) *The Protodie guys are competitive with the m/c powered cars against other similar vehicles - including some Pilots from what I understand.

We need to start up a thread (that's very focused and doesn't wander off with hijackings) that states the sizes of the vehicles that are being raced - this would need to include (measured as if the vehicle is sitting on the start line - full of fuel, suspension at ride height, driver in it):
Overall Length
Overall Width
Wheel Base
Engine Displacement
Possibly tire and wheel diameter? (SODA required 13" wheels as they were sponsored by one of the tire mfgs) *- no, the more that I think about that it shouldn't be part of the rules...

If we can find a general size that the vehicles being raced in I believe that would be a great base for a set of rules.

Obviously we also need to set up safety rules - that's pretty easy - just look on CORR, SCORE, BITD and the guys running races already.

5-point or 6 point harness
Fire Suit
Helmet with the latest DOT/SNELL helmet
gloves
5 lb. fire extinguisher on board
Fuel Cell or a fuel container that's obviously well protected and won't leak away in a roll over
Window nets
Wrist restraints (?)

Chassis build may be one of the more open things that really needs to be thought about - roll cage on a car under 1000 lbs can probably be 1.25x.083 DOM as long as it has correct bracing. *The majority of the chassis could probably be safe with this size tubing too. *Bracing can be subjective - a correctly triangulated setup could be done with 1x.049 and be more than strong enough.

If we can get a set of basic layout rules written up and then post them on all the board that are known to have Lites people on and ask the people to fill in their ideas, we could put together a good broad based database that will probably start to follow specific trends for each aspect of the rules. *Take the answers that are the most common (as you know someone's going to be out in left field on certain answers - 100" wheel base with a Hybusa or 50" wheel base with a B&S 15 hp industrial) and work from there.

If we can then get a general set of rules set up, take these rules to any place that might consider letting Lites run and discuss them with the sanctioning body.

State the focus of the rules, where the rules came from (the racers themselves) and then see if the race promoters are open to the ideas.

Be willing to listen to any input the promoters may have (we're coming into their playground, they don't have to do squat for us)

Don't get riled up at their suggestions or unwillingness to talk (if so, see who else in the system you might be able to talk to and then take that to them).

Listen to their input, be professional in the approach and be willing to argue any points in a calm collected manner.

We'll have to make ourselves look as professional, prepared and business like as possible if we want this sort of thing to work.

The first person that turns on the arsehole switch during one of these meetings will BLOW IT FOR EVERYONE, so keep that in mind, keep the ego in the pocket and say please, thank you and I see where you're coming from.

Anyhow, these are just my ideas and opinions - I hope that they make some sense and I'd really like to hear what the rest of you guys have to input on the whole idea of getting rules for us to go play by set in motion and in place so we can go play.

PilotHawK
09-12-2007, 11:21 AM
Not enough torque to run long with the big boys. Stock Busa 1300 cc 175 HP / 98 lbs Torque. Stock VW 1600 cc 55 HP 150 lbs Torque.

This is what I am talking about. We need to develop a "baseline" car for each class....as much as I hate to compare to NASCAR we need a template...a "car of tomorrow" so to speak. Look at the SAE cars and how different each of them are, but they have to follow a very detailed set of rules.

The reason that that the rhinos and rzr's are racing is because there are rules in place for racing them, and things are fairly "equal" between them. I think the more we can equalize the cars the more people would be interested in racing them. Nobody wants to spend 10 or 20k on a car, spend who knows how much to show up for a race, pay entry fees, and get their tail handed to them because someone else used a 700cc sled motor instead of a 600 like everyone else.

As far as equalization goes I feel that this is the most important key to getting these things racing again. Look at the racing classes for mini dwarfs, trophy carts, and karts in general. With a solid set of rules almost anyone can be competitive without breaking the bank. Racing isn't cheap to be sure, but equalize the field and the racing is better and almost every car on the track has a shot at winning a race.

Minibuggy.net is proof that there is a passion for little cars and how much fun they are.
The current little car is the Rhino. Huge numbers of $25,000+ Rhinos are showing up and racing. Talk about slow! But the guys love 'em. How long is it going to be before these guys are ready to go FASTER!

Here is an example of rules for the minidwarfs http://www.vradwarfs.com/Rules.htm They are pretty specific, but there is also a lot of room for "interpretation" within them.

I cannot start a "race series" I just think its time to really push for a set of standards in order to get lites back on the scene, and I think that with a good "rule book" and one or 2 sponsoring tracks lites could make a comeback.

boilermaker
09-12-2007, 02:32 PM
With a loose set of rules like you propose,and i support, every builder will benifit *because #1 buggy will be safer #2 buggy will be able to race or not.#3 the next owner could race or not(better resale)#4 more parts availabilty because of simularity #5 more people working on improving same general class/size/usage buggies. Still different but much the same ( like Ford& Chevrolet are different but can still race )

AtvNut
09-12-2007, 02:54 PM
I think the first rule should be a tire limitation as it is a great equalizer keep to 10" Rims and ATV tires

minibajaman
09-12-2007, 03:49 PM
This is what I am talking about. We need to develop a "baseline" car for each class....as much as I hate to compare to NASCAR we need a template...a "car of tomorrow" so to speak. Look at the SAE cars and how different each of them are, but they have to follow a very detailed set of rules.

As far as equalization goes I feel that this is the most important key to getting these things racing again. Look at the racing classes for mini dwarfs, trophy carts, and karts in general. With a solid set of rules almost anyone can be competitive without breaking the bank. Racing isn't cheap to be sure, but equalize the field and the racing is better and almost every car on the track has a shot at winning a race.

Minibuggy.net is proof that there is a passion for little cars and how much fun they are.

Agreed. *Some sort of rules are necessary if anyone wants a lite buggy racing class to really take off. *The Baja SAE rules seem restrictive at first, but once understood there is plenty of room for flexibility, as you pointed out.



I think the first rule should be a tire limitation as it is a great equalizer keep to 10" Rims and ATV tires


Why? *That's the last thing I would worry about limiting. *It's certainly not the combo of choice for most people. *Even many Baja SAE teams use larger than 10" rims. *And many people prefer DOT tires to ATV tires, especially for hard pack short course racing.

K-fab
09-12-2007, 03:54 PM
I think the first rule should be a tire limitation as it is a great equalizer keep to 10" Rims and ATV tiresOh man. *Already trying to exclude me aren't ya! * I'll be on 13"ers. * Tires and rim diam should be left open to the drivers - it allows for tuning to the track and such. *I ran a combo of 13" and 10" on the Pilot when I did the stadium stuff. *It changed from track to track - could be all four on 10", all four on 13" or front 10 rear 13 or front 13, rear 10's. *Just depended.

I don't care for the way ATV tires handle either - bouncy, bouncy, bouncy, bouncy, fun, fun, fun, fun, fun - but the most wonderful thing about Tiggers is that I'm the only one! * [smilie=blink.gif] * (pardon.... off track a bit!)

Make the focus more on oaw and oal of the vehicles. *It would be very easy to police too - just make sure that someone carries around a small frame that's built to the max specs. *If it slides over a car w/o hitting anything than the car "Fits" in the Light Class.

Power plants should be limited in some aspect. *Maybe not by CC but by output. *A smaller car like a Lite really doesn't need to be powered with 150 hp - that's getting outrageous and at the foot of someone with little experience could be very dangerous.

What do two stroke 600 twins put out? *120ish?
600 m/c engines? *120ish? - 130ish?

Break the classes down by hp might be an idea.

I also mentioned to Pilothawk on the phone earlier - how about doing some sort of time trials type of setting (this would require a bit of help from the tracks - at least at first). *Five timed laps would probably help place similarly paced vehicles in classes and make the racing more equal, exciting and fun. *I've seen 929 (or was it 954?) powered cars that were rockets down the straights, but in the corners, the Pilots just went "ha ha" and turned in under them. *HP can be a detractor if you can't control it or put it to the ground well.

We all need to try to keep a focus on making this exciting for the crowds. *Bill Easterly (the guy who ran the Pace Series) never quit stressing "This is a SHOW" *"Put on a SHOW for the crowd". *If we end up having 10 cars on the line, one runs away two battle, and one just putts around, it's not a lot of fun for people to watch. *So the closer we can match the cars by class (be it by hp, time trials or what ever we can come up with) the better. *The promoter and race track owners understand this and if we can approach them with this sort of thinking, it will go a long way.

As you guys can see - this is a wide open set of things that we need to try to work down into classes and general rules that work for everyone, as much as possible. *There are obviously going to be some issues that won't get worked out across the board and there will be some people that end up having to work with or deal with things that may not be present on their already owned vehicle. *The idea isn't to single out anyone nor pick on anything in particular, it's to get a set of rules that everyone can live with, abide by and build and race to that brings the Stadium Lites Class back from the dead.

We're one of the most fun classes to watch and to participate in - if we can collectively come up with a good set of rules to follow and a good set of plans to approach the racing people with (in other words - do our homework first), I don't think we can loose.

I'd love to have enough of us get rules figured out and show that enough of us are serious about it and take the class up to WSORR and approach them to see if they'd let us come back and run places like Bark River, Antigo and the Mother of All Short Courses - CRANDON! *[smilie=bow.gif] * If you've ever had a chance to take a lap around that place, you'd do just about anything to do it again!

AtvNut
09-12-2007, 04:05 PM
if you have a something that limits traction horsepower doesnt mean a thing aka 10" rim

Bugpac
09-12-2007, 05:10 PM
The only down fall to that 10 rimmed atv tire, is they are far less safer than a rated tire on a larger diameter rim, Are the rules going to specify the use of beadlocks at the same time? And limiting it to a 10" wheel does nothing more than keeping it a pilot class....

IMO, Length width and Minimum weight, the rest is run what you brung....

Bugpac
09-12-2007, 05:38 PM
If you cant run all the cars in one class, at least in this part of the country, Your likely to have 3 classes with 1 or 2 cars in them.... *

I think if you do anything you limit ccs....Hp ratings via factory etc are way BS most of the time, Whos to say a guy with 150 is getting 110 to the wheels, were a guy with 120 may be getting 110 ....

My vote is ccs....750 max, 2 stroke limited to twin and 4 stroke to 4....

I think if you try to limit any other factors, you will become The Iroc series....Then kfab could just supply all the equal cars and we could come race them.... [smilie=biggrin.gif]


Also, Factory drive.... *Chain or belt...No 16k rpm motors with a cvt bolted to the crank etc, to dangerous in a large crowd....

ultraman
09-12-2007, 06:17 PM
Why not limit tire size rather than wheel size.A 22" tire will have a smaller contact patch then a 26" tire therefore limiting traction.Although sizes vary depending on the manufacturer.I think limiting engine sizes to 600cc both 2 and 4 stroke would be a good start, since the power output is comparable.At bob's the proto boys with 600cc 4 stroke's are closely matched with daves 600cc 2 cycle pilot.

Bugpac
09-12-2007, 06:20 PM
well limiting tire and wheel size also induce yet another bad thing, smaller brake rotors mean less stopping power, IMO the pilot breaks are not nearly enuff for what the car is, then add the 100hp to that....

Bugpac
09-12-2007, 06:25 PM
Why limit tire size, So the snowmobile pilots have the advantage, my big ass 26/14's weigh 2xs as much as a 10" wheel and tire, Who is at the disadvantage?

Atv tires are desinged for lower speed and less weight....most quads are what 500lbs....
Now if you are going to limit weight to about 600lbs then yes tires would be a good thing to limit....

ultraman
09-12-2007, 06:33 PM
Proto runs atv tires on thier 950lb machines with no problems.

Bugpac
09-12-2007, 06:38 PM
Proto runs atv tires on thier 950lb machines with no problems.

Yet!!

Not saying they will either, I can run my 4000 lb van down the road with 3 lugnuts, Maybe i can run it forever, maybe it will just make it 2 miles....

Ford explores were running firestones with no problems at one time.... [smilie=biggrin.gif]

Sorry, I feel very strongly against limiting cars to atv tires....IMO its like saying the chassis can not be any larger than .058 wall tubing....

hero_saku39
09-12-2007, 06:47 PM
I'm sorry I don't really have the experience to add much but this is the direction I am going (lites). *I am gather parts and tools. *I just gave notice that I will be leaving my company in December so I can be at home to work on this. *I am a man obsessed, taking a 35% pay cut to try and make it happen. *Got my brother on board with more capitol. *I will be available to help this cause in any way I can soon.

As I said I don't have much experience at lites/short course cars or even racing, but what I do have is common sense and my common sense tells me this. *We should start with wheel base, width, over all length , over all width, *acceptable build material......................I would think performance limiters such as engine size, wheel/tire size, suspension travel????...should be left to hammer out latter in the process.


More later........

odypilots
09-12-2007, 07:13 PM
I think there should be a MAXIMUM weight rule.

I'm against any roll cage rules that outlaw stock Pilot cages. I don't have the ability to build a replacement, and you turn your back on the most widely available machine.

It's hard to base rules on engine output. My 600 2 smoke twin is rated at 100 hp. Someone could build one to 130 hp, easy. How do you measure it? I say limit engine technology and displacement.

IMO, the only way to truly revive Lite racing is for a major manufacturer to build a proper vehicle. Something a spectator can watch, decide to do, and go buy one. AND get parts for.

hero_saku39
09-12-2007, 07:21 PM
IMO, the only way to truly revive Lite racing is for a major manufacturer to build a proper vehicle. Something a spectator can watch, decide to do, and go buy one. AND get parts for.

I think this is not too far down the road if Redline sees any amount of success with their cars. *Also considering the explosion of popularity with sxs will help move some of the big four away from the idea that you have to stradle the seat to have fun.

Bugpac
09-12-2007, 07:31 PM
I think there should be a MAXIMUM weight rule.

I'm against any roll cage rules that outlaw stock Pilot cages. I don't have the ability to build a replacement, and you turn your back on the most widely available machine.

It's hard to base rules on engine output. My 600 2 smoke twin is rated at 100 hp. Someone could build one to 130 hp, easy. How do you measure it? I say limit engine technology and displacement.

IMO, the only way to truly revive Lite racing is for a major manufacturer to build a proper vehicle. Something a spectator can watch, decide to do, and go buy one. AND get parts for.

I agree, a minimum and maximum weight....Less the driver. we dont want anyone substituting belly for tubing quality... [smilie=biggrin.gif] *[smilie=biggrin.gif] *[smilie=biggrin.gif]

I also agree that you cant take the pilot out, *It is grandfathered In...

Rorty
09-12-2007, 07:46 PM
Tyre size should be fundamental in the forming of any new race series, be it on bitumen or dirt.

ATV tyres originated on early three-wheelers to provide their un-sprung solid rear ends with some degree of compliance, but they're just air bags with no damping facility. You wouldn't consider running airbags as your suspension 'springs' without the addition of shock absorbers, so why put them on your wheels?

ATV tyres make a mockery of any and all suspension set-ups simply because their spring effect can't be harnessed or controlled. Where's the point in running *sophisticated shocks like Fox airs or coilovers only to run secondary uncontrolled springs (the tyres)? You may as well run swing arm suspension and $50 Chinese shocks if you're going to run ATV tyres.

I don't accept the argument that rated tyres are expensive; BFG and many other manufacturers produce cheap 26"/27" rated tyres with just the grip levels we require for off-road racing.

Unfortunately many people are under the assumption that running fat wide chunky tyres offers the same benefits as adding a turbo to the engine! It couldn't be further from the truth: European rally drivers make far better times driving the frozen snow stages of Scandinavia than on loose gravel stages because they run skinny little (3" wide) tyres that cut through the slippery hard-packed snow and down to the road surface below. Frozen Scandinavian rallies are always faster than dry or wet rallies elsewhere. (True! Google it!)

Even on the gravel stages around the world, rally drivers run relatively narrow tyres (5"-6") because they cut away the ball bearing loose gravel on the road surface and grip on the firmer hard pack. The only time you want wide tyres for racing is where you have high horsepower and hot sticky bitumen, but even then, to stiffen the tyres, the profiles usually resemble rubber bands.

ATV tyres are flotation devices designed to keep a vehicle from sinking into swamps and sand. They have no place on a race track and personally, I wouldn't want to participate in a race series that mandated or recommended ATV tyres. Leave ATV tyres for quads and farm utilities.

ultraman
09-12-2007, 08:25 PM
I think today's atv tires are far superior to the first atc tires, and with the advent of the radials are getting even better. Ok maybe tire size restriction is not the answer.

Bugpac
09-12-2007, 08:32 PM
Most atv tires in 10" are not radials, I myself have 14" atv tires that are radials....I like the rim diameter myself...They surely would be nicer on aluminum wheels, but time will bring them to the market.....

Pacman
09-12-2007, 08:41 PM
Tell us how you really feel Bob! *[smilie=mhihi.gif] I agree fully .....ATV tires are just fine on a fun vehicle for trail riding but in a racing environment you really want a rated tire with real sidewalls .........maybe we should all just run this car!! [smilie=boogie.gif]

ultraman
09-12-2007, 08:51 PM
I'll take this one [smilie=biggrin.gif]

K-fab
09-12-2007, 08:57 PM
Let's grab the bull by the horns and get some guidelines ironed out first.

It seems to me that everyone's already trying to argue stuff that doesn't matter much yet. *We need to figure out the basis for the class then work from there.

SO:

What is a LITE???

It's a SMALL single seater.

How small???

What's the largest lite out there? *(the old Genesis? - it was probably the heaviest - man I hated helping Paul Sutton put his on the trailer).

Drakarts are probably one of the larger Lites - maybe not width wise, but they sure seem to be longer than the average bear. *I don't know what the Proto guys' car are size wise - Jody, can you throw out some measurements?

We need to get some basic measurements listed first:
There are quite a few lites out there:
Pilot - stock and LT
Redline Revolt
C-Moore
Drakart (many variations)
Proto-Die
Briggs (Gen II, Gen III, Gen IV)
Home builts of many sorts

So how about it? *Those of you that have any of these vehicles listed or have access to the dimensions put 'em up on the board!

We need Overall length - front to rear - this includes bumpers *Put it against a wall and measure from the wall to the farthest point from the wall. *Don't go throwing out "It's X long w/o a bumper" unless you don't plan on using the bumper. *Measure as if it was sitting on the starting line of a race.

We need overall width - this is at ride height. *Doesn't matter if it's front or rear wheels - what's the widest point on the car? *Best to take this measurement at ride height - once again, as if it were sitting on the line, ready for a race.

We need wheel base - measure this from the center of the front axle to the center of the rear axle

Let's get a general idea of the SIZE of the vehicles that we're considering Lites for starters.

SAFETY would have to come next. *I don't have an issue grandfathering in the Old Pilot roll cages - I've seen more than my fair share of them take some pretty serious lumps. *They would have to be considered as the low end of the scale, but the things DO work and they do their job.

A stock Pilot harness, on the other hand needs to be cut out at the belt mounts and tossed into the round file whether you plan on racing or not. *The thing's a pile-o-crap and there's nothing good or safe about it.

A 5-point harness would be mandatory and it would have to meet date requirements. *This is a part of your machine that your life depends on. *No skimping here. *(I'm taking a very hard-assed stance on this one).

Same for a helmet - must meet the latest DOT and/or Snell rating. *Once again - this is something that your life depends on and trying to save a few bucks to use an old helmet is just flat STUPID.

5-lb fire extinguisher is also a must. *They're easy to get, don't cost much and anything that saves us against becoming Mr. Crispy is well worth it. *

Fire/driving suit. *They really are not that expensive - single piece, single layer can be found for around 150 or so. *Once again, do you want to become Mr. Crispy??? *I know I don't like fire....

What you spend on safety equipment probably won't cover a single trip to the E.R. *Take that into perspective.


Next we'll have to hash it out over power plants. *Everyone has to realize that there will probably be more than one class of lite. *Trying to lump everyone together is just silly. *Be realistic here guys. *Don't go arguing or bickering over the output of the engine or speculating stuff. *Just say what you're running. *There are so many factors, such as gearing with M/C powered cars, clutch tuning with CVT cars and such that trying to say one is better than the other, one has an advantage over the other and the likes is silly. *If you guys want to race, then realize this is what makes racing - the ability to tune a vehicle to it's fullest potential, regardless of the type of powerplant or drivetrain.

Tires and wheels - I can't believe you're arguing over this one!!! *It's a preference of the driver and the car the driver has. *As I stated above, I used all sorts of combos of ATV and Street tires when I was doing the stadium racing. *It doesn't matter what the other guy's running, it matters how well you can make your preference work.

You want to argue about street versus ATV?? *Come on! *It's goofy to do so. *Let this be open to what the driver likes. *Arguing over stuff will be the demise of the class - we have to band together and work with each other. *Accept that there are differences in opinions. *What works for one, may not work for another - and who cares???

I can get (or at least used to be able to get) 29" tall tires for 13" rims for places like Crandon, and I can get 22" tall tires for 13" rims for short course. *Tell me you can't do exactly the same thing (actually with MORE variety) in an ATV style tire?
Why limit the rules to 13' or 10" rims? *There's a load of 12" rims out there too. *- oh my, another size to worry about!!

If you guys really want the lites class to come back and become a constant class in off road racing, putting silly limits like this is counter productive. * BE OPEN MINDED and think about the important things - OAL, OAW, Wheelbase and SAFETY.

If we want lites to become what they were again, we have to work together. *There's nothing wrong with a bit of good debate over things, but we don't even have a base idea of the really important things figured out yet. *Let's get that started first.

Pacman
09-12-2007, 08:57 PM
I'll take this one [smilie=biggrin.gif]

If you look at them....they look strikingly similar.......

Rorty
09-12-2007, 08:59 PM
I'll take this one [smilie=biggrin.gif]

I wouldn't mind that one either. I nearly bought that Briggs (or one of the bunch that Renee Awana had in mind for us) about seven or eight years ago.

hero_saku39
09-12-2007, 09:05 PM
protodie 69" wide, 76" long wheel base, 114 oal, 930 lbs.

redline 65" wide, 73.5" long wheel base, 98" long oal, 694 lbs.

Bugpac
09-12-2007, 09:09 PM
Ok Ill start

70" maximum width, 10' overall maximum length.... At ride height....
700 lbs Minimum weight 1000 lbs maximum no driver....
5 *point harness minimum 3", Not out of date....
Window nets both sides, except for pilots with wrist restraints, Only exception...
Windshield screen no larger than 3/4 square hole opening, securely attached
Fuel tank must have roll over valve
Battery must be covered
Belt and chain guard between operator and Chain or belt In addition to the aluminum firewall...Must fully cover width and height of cvt drive clutch to operator
Aluminum firewall directly behind seat Minimum .60 ?
Dual front and single rear brake minimum
Roll bar padding around helmet contact are with tubing
!.25 x.095 dom tube minimum

Ok anyone else?

ultraman
09-12-2007, 09:11 PM
Ok, specs for the badland if built directly off the plans are
Length=116"........This is without bumpers
width=68"
wb=90"
hieght=58"
Wieght???? 600-800lbs guestemet [smilie=biggrin.gif]

K-fab
09-12-2007, 09:11 PM
[quote="ultraman\";p=\"44051":1x1rd3bx]I'll take this one [smilie=biggrin.gif]

I wouldn't mind that one either. I nearly bought that Briggs (or one of the bunch that Renee Awana had in mind for us) about seven or eight years ago.[/quote:1x1rd3bx]Na, Na, Na, Na [smilie=non_banana2.gif]
They'll be here Monday!
They'll be here Monday!
(in my best snotty little kid voice!)
*[smilie=rockout3.gif]

K-fab
09-12-2007, 09:17 PM
protodie 69" wide, 76" long wheel base, 114 oal, 930 lbs.

redline 65" wide, 98" long, 694 lbs.
Ok Ill start

70" maximum width, 10' overall maximum length.... At ride height....
700 lbs Minimum weight 1000 lbs maximum no driver....
5 *point harness minimum 3", Not out of date....
Window nets both sides, except for pilots with wrist restraints, Only exception...
Windshield screen no larger than 3/4 square hole opening, securely attached
Fuel tank must have roll over valve
Battery must be covered
Belt and chain guard between operator and Chain or belt In addition to the aluminum firewall...Must fully cover width and height of cvt drive clutch to operator
Aluminum firewall directly behind seat Minimum .60 ?
Dual front and single rear brake minimum
Roll bar padding around helmet contact are with tubing
1.25 x.095 dom tube minimum

Ok anyone else?
Ok, specs for the badland if built directly off the plans are
Length=116"........This is without bumpers
width=68"
wb=90"
hieght=58"
Wieght???? 600-800lbs guestemet [smilie=biggrin.gif]

COOL! This is what we need to get things started.

Max weight??? Who cares - that's a hindrance to who ever has the beastie car. *Min weight should probably be more like 650 WITH FLUIDS - as if it were ready to sit on the line.

Window screen - that should be optional for the driver. *Anyone that's stopped a few rocks will appreciate it, but mandatory??? *right now that's more of a subjective call.

Good call on the fuel tank and battery. *I forgot about that stuff.

Bugpac
09-12-2007, 09:20 PM
I likely dont want a 1800lb car made fro 2" black pipe and a green driver running into the side of me...Hence the 1000 lb rule.... [smilie=biggrin.gif]

hero_saku39
09-12-2007, 09:22 PM
I likely dont want a 1800lb car made fro 2" black pipe and a green driver running into the side of me...Hence the 1000 lb rule.... [smilie=biggrin.gif]

what would you be doing next to him????? maybe lapping him.

ultraman
09-12-2007, 09:24 PM
Are you guys going to make me put front brakes on to come race [smilie=ashamed.gif]

hero_saku39
09-12-2007, 09:26 PM
Are you guys going to make me put front brakes on to come race [smilie=ashamed.gif]

No.......we'll just let you stay in front. [smilie=strokin.gif] *[smilie=mhihi.gif]

K-fab
09-12-2007, 09:27 PM
I likely dont want a 1800lb car made fro 2" black pipe and a green driver running into the side of me...Hence the 1000 lb rule.... [smilie=biggrin.gif]Ah, pretty valid point. *Then again, an 1800 lb lite won't make it off the line easily and should be able to be passed w/ease. *It would be slug city... [smilie=loser.gif]

ultraman
09-12-2007, 09:28 PM
[quote="ultraman\";p=\"44075":3durvlhe]Are you guys going to make me put front brakes on to come race [smilie=ashamed.gif]

No.......we'll just let you stay in front. [smilie=strokin.gif] *[smilie=mhihi.gif][/quote:3durvlhe]


Gee thanks! [smilie=big_bday.gif]

Rorty
09-12-2007, 09:47 PM
Arguing over stuff will be the demise of the class - we have to band together and work with each other.

Arguing over stuff like tyres, engines, shocks, tube size and physical dimensions is essential at this stage. In my experience of racing in several different codes, if the rules are left loose and open for interpretation, then some smart arse with a healthy budget will always find a way to circumvent the regulations - and that's when the fisticuffs really begin!.

Tight rules make for tight racing. Look at any of the top motorsport in the world and the rule book will invariably be quite extensive.

Establishing a regulation vehicle (or several bases for different classes) is absolutely essential so that everyone is racing on a level field and it all comes down to driver skill, not the size of an individual's wallet.

By all means have a formula libre (I used to race in Open Class in TORC) where competitors can really express their individuality and make the most of big budgets, but the best club racing I've ever experienced in many different codes in several different countries is where the classes are tightly regulated.

TORC had classes for stock FL250 and FL350 Odysseys and they were often the better spectacle too on a short track.

K-fab
09-12-2007, 10:11 PM
Arguing over stuff like tyres, engines, shocks, tube size and physical dimensions is essential at this stage. In my experience of racing in several different codes, if the rules are left loose and open for interpretation, then some smart arse with a healthy budget will always find a way to circumvent the regulations - and that's when the fisticuffs really begin!.
No argument here. *Your point is very valid. *What I'm saying is that for now, the beginning of trying to get some sort of rules up and running, we need to get the basic stuff down and figured out/agreed on. *Once we get a foundation for what a Lite should be - size and such, then we can start working towards other aspects.

I don't expect this venture to be a smooth, tarmac style road - it will be a whooped out, double jump filled rough riding course.
I plan on clearing all the damn doubles this time! * [smilie=boogie.gif]

hero_saku39
09-12-2007, 10:14 PM
Oh s#!t......K-fab crashed and broke his other leg. [smilie=ext_crutch.gif]

Pacman
09-12-2007, 10:32 PM
Rorty R11 Stiletto:
Wheelbase ------- 96"
Length --------------141"
Width ----------------78"
Height -------------- 64"

Rorty
09-12-2007, 10:40 PM
No argument here. *Your point is very valid. *What I'm saying is that for now, the beginning of trying to get some sort of rules up and running, we need to get the basic stuff down and figured out/agreed on. *Once we get a foundation for what a Lite should be - size and such, then we can start working towards other aspects.

Good, we're on the same page. http://i20.photobucket.com/albums/b237/Rorty/PIX/so-happy.gif

Can I then propose:
Wheelbase - 78"
OAW - 68"
OAL - 112"
OAH - 58"
Major material - 1.25" x .083" DOM

http://i20.photobucket.com/albums/b237/Rorty/PIX/metaldetector.gif

hero_saku39
09-12-2007, 10:54 PM
[quote="K-fab\";p=\"44097":2n5ipuqy]No argument here. *Your point is very valid. *What I'm saying is that for now, the beginning of trying to get some sort of rules up and running, we need to get the basic stuff down and figured out/agreed on. *Once we get a foundation for what a Lite should be - size and such, then we can start working towards other aspects.

Good, we're on the same page. http://i20.photobucket.com/albums/b237/Rorty/PIX/so-happy.gif

Can I then propose:
Wheelbase - 78"
OAW - 68"
OAL - 112"
OAH - 58"
Major material - 1.25" x .083" DOM

http://i20.photobucket.com/albums/b237/Rorty/PIX/metaldetector.gif[/quote:2n5ipuqy]

Something tells me there will be a new Rorty Design car out shortly with these exact specs.

hero_saku39
09-12-2007, 11:05 PM
protodie 69" wide, 76" long wheel base, 114 oal, 930 lbs.

redline 65" wide, 73.5" long wheel base, 98" long oal, 694 lbs.

Edge Barracuda. *76" wide, 91.75" long wheel base, 118" oal, +/- 830 lbs.

Piranha. *67" wide, 78.75" long wheel base, 106" oal, +/- 825 lbs.

TutTech
09-12-2007, 11:05 PM
I think at Score anyways they want vehicles to have atleast
1,000 produced per year to count as a class.
Motors also.

Once those numbers are reached then they will talk
about allowing a class to be openned up if they
get enough interest in it.

Local places have Sportsman classes open to any
and all vehicles.
Buggies have a class and trucks have a class.

If they get enough entries they also will
see about openning a class up just for
those cars.

The number at my current organization is 10 cars.
If you have atleast 10 cars to start a class then
they will allow it to run in its own class.

My current organization is also not as strict about
the 1,000 built in a single year..
they dont care.

Anyways if you fallow an exact rule
then a lot of builders would be out.

Anyways good luck with this.
Shoot now I am going to have to build an even smaller car.
[smilie=biggrin.gif]


Oh and here is my local race organization

http://www.moreracing.net/

Rorty
09-12-2007, 11:06 PM
Something tells me there will be a new Rorty Design car out shortly with these exact specs.

Hmmm...nope!
http://i20.photobucket.com/albums/b237/Rorty/PIX/asleep_on_job.gif

Rorty
09-12-2007, 11:09 PM
I know at Score anyways they want vehicles to have atleast
1,000 produced per year to count as a class.

[smilie=shocker.gif] *Wow! I can't imagine too many manufacturers getting even close to those numbers.

ultraman
09-12-2007, 11:10 PM
Can I then propose:
Wheelbase - 78"
OAW - 68"
OAL - 112"
OAH - 58"
Major material - 1.25" x .083" DOM
*

If you limit the oal what difference would the wheelbase make?

hero_saku39
09-12-2007, 11:13 PM
Can I then propose:
Wheelbase - 78"
OAW - 68"
OAL - 112"
OAH - 58"
Major material - 1.25" x .083" DOM
*

If you limit the oal what difference would the wheelbase make?

I was thinking If you limit the oal wheelbase what difference would the wheelbase oal make?

Rorty
09-12-2007, 11:18 PM
Can I then propose:
Wheelbase - 78"
OAW - 68"
OAL - 112"
OAH - 58"
Major material - 1.25" x .083" DOM
*

If you limit the oal what difference would the wheelbase make?

It wouldn't; I just had a bunch of specs in front of me and started typing. Then I realised we're only talking shadow sizes at the moment and didn't think to delete the wheelbase figure.

hero_saku39
09-12-2007, 11:22 PM
FL 400 pilot.

Length: 96.4 inches
Width: 50.5 inches
Height: 57.2 inches
Wheelbase: 62.2 inches
Weight: 600 lbs.

ultraman
09-12-2007, 11:33 PM
I think 10ft max oal , and let the wheelbase fall where it may.That would allow a lot of guys that built from Edge, Desertkart,Badland plans to race, and does'nt sound out of reason for a short corse car (imo)

amergin
09-12-2007, 11:39 PM
You guys want a new forum for this discussion? Then you could break out the discussion into various topics that will not get lost in and amongst the normal lounge topics. Not too mention more focused talks on the different areas of concern.

Also could add a new moderator just for this forum. Create a new locked topic for the Specs that the moderator is the only one able to edit/add new items. Any new area of consideration for the rule book should have a topic open for discussion. Once the discussion has been hammered out then open a poll, winner gets added to the first Rule Book draft. Once the draft is worked out then you go into review and for further discussion on the topics followed by a poll if needed to modify the Rule Book. You guys would become a Configuration Control Board (CCB) for the class rules. All else this would be a place to keep all discussion related to the Class in one area of the site. No searching for the topic scattered all over.

Forum title:Lite Class Discussion

Topics:Rule Book - Specs (Locked with one moderator updating)
Size
Frame
Weight
Motor

Hopefully this makes sense, been downing painkillers for a ruptured tendon now for two days. The stuff is making start to think some squirrel is out to get me....

ultraman
09-12-2007, 11:58 PM
Great idea amergin.I vote to have k-fab moderate(of course).I bet that squirrel has a large bag of nuts also [smilie=mhihi.gif]

ultraman
09-13-2007, 12:20 AM
StoneCity has 3 lite classes.
Buggy Rules

Class: Superlite Unlimited



1) Suspension -Open; 93 inch wheelbase MAX.

2) Steering- Open

3) Shock Absorbers- Open

4) Wheels and Tires- Type open, size open.

5) Brakes- Car MUST have four wheel brakes in good working order.

6) Frame-Open; Frame MUST be in good condition with a MINIMUM of 1 and inch *

* *tubing and MINIMUM of 1 inch gussets. Main roll cage thickness must be a * *

* *MINIMUM of 095 mild steel or chrome molly tubing. NO SQUARE tubing.

7) Seat belts- A MINIMUM of Five(5) points and three(3) inch width. MUST have * *

* *two(2) shoulder straps, Two(2) lap belts ,and one(1) crotch strap. Belts must be in

* *good shape with NO cuts.

8) Seat- A racing type seat is HIGHLY recommended. Seats MUST BE securely

* *mounted to the frame.

9) Bumpers- MUST be safe and may NOT protrude beyond the track of the car.

10) Drivers Clothing- A fire suit is HIGHLY recommended in this class. GLOVES, * *

* * *HELMET, and PROTECTIVE eyewear are required. ARM restraints or * *

* * *WINDOW nets are required.

11) Muffler- Required

12) Engine- 600cc 2-stroke and 1000cc 4-stroke MAXIMUM.



Class: Superlite Modified Lite



1) Suspension -Open; 85 inch wheel base MAX. *70 inch Width MAX.

2) Steering- Open

3) Shock Absorbers- Open; 8 inches wheel travel MAX.

4) Wheels and Tires- open, ATV style wheels and tires ONLY.

5) Brakes- 4 wheel brakes HIGHLY recommended. Brakes MUST be in good working *

* *order.

6) Frame-Open; Frame MUST be in good condition with a MINIMUM of 1 inch *

* *tubing and MINIMUM of 1 inch gussets. Main roll cage thickness must be a * *

* *MINIMUM of 095 mild steel or chrome molly tubing. NO SQUARE tubing.

7) Seat belts- A MINIMUM of *four(4) points. MUST have two(2) shoulder straps and * *

* *two(2) lap belts. A crotch strap is HIGHLY recommended.

8) Seat- open, MUST be mounted to the frame securely.

9) Bumpers- MUST be safe and may NOT protrude beyond the track of the car.

10) Drivers Clothing- A fire suit is HIGHLY recommended in this class. GLOVES, * *

* * *HELMET, and PROTECTIVE eyewear are required. ARM restraints or * *

* * *WINDOW nets are required.

11) Muffler- Required

12) Engine- 250cc 2-stroke and 450cc 4-stroke MAX. Single cylinder ONLY.



Class: Superlite Modified





1) Suspension -Open; 85 inch wheel base MAX. *70 inch Width MAX.

2) Steering- Open

3) Shock Absorbers- Open; 10 inches wheel travel MAX.

4) Wheels and Tires- open, ATV style wheels and tires ONLY.

5) Brakes- 4 wheel brakes HIGHLY recommended. Brakes MUST be in good working *

* *order.

6) Frame-Open; Frame MUST be in good condition with a MINIMUM of 1 inch *

* *tubing and MINIMUM of 1 inch gussets. Main roll cage thickness must be a * *

* *MINIMUM of 095 mild steel or chrome molly tubing. NO SQUARE tubing.

7) Seat belts- A MINIMUM of *four(4) points. MUST have two(2) shoulder straps and * *

* *two(2) lap belts. A crotch strap is HIGHLY recommended.

8) Seat- open, MUST be mounted to the frame securely.

9) Bumpers- MUST be safe and may NOT protrude beyond the track of the car.

10) Drivers Clothing- A fire suit is HIGHLY recommended in this class. GLOVES, * *

* * *HELMET, and PROTECTIVE eyewear are required. ARM restraints or * *

* * *WINDOW nets are required.

11) Muffler- Required

12) Engine- 480cc 2-stroke and 800cc 4-stroke MAX. Twin cylinder MAX

odypilots
09-13-2007, 06:30 AM
FL 400 pilot.

Length: 96.4 inches
Width: 50.5 inches
Height: 57.2 inches
Wheelbase: 62.2 inches
Weight: 600 lbs.

Some of those measurements are inaccurate. Here's a scan of the Pilot manual.

http://downhomeracing.com/pictures/Pilot_specs.jpg

K-fab
09-13-2007, 07:51 AM
[quote="hero_saku39\";p=\"44133":2n2pow1g]FL 400 pilot.

Length: 96.4 inches
Width: 50.5 inches
Height: 57.2 inches
Wheelbase: 62.2 inches
Weight: 600 lbs.

Some of those measurements are inaccurate. Here's a scan of the Pilot manual.[/quote:2n2pow1g]
Sounds like Hero's measurements include either a Hondaline front bumper and/or a Hondaline rear bumper too.


Oh s#!t......K-fab crashed and broke his other leg. [smilie=ext_crutch.gif]If we ever cross paths, I shall shove a crutch in a place you don't want!!!

The last guy that asked me "So what bone are you going to break next?" ended up jinxing me and I broke my collarbone the very next day in the dunes. *

DON'T JINX ME LIKE THAT!!! * [smilie=angry.gif]

I am very tired of being broken. * [smilie=cry.gif]

K-fab
09-13-2007, 08:12 AM
You guys want a new forum for this discussion? Then you could break out the discussion into various topics that will not get lost in and amongst the normal lounge topics. Not too mention more focused talks on the different areas of concern.
That would be great - Make away!!!

With the layout that Amergin's mentioned, I have a question for everyone:
Guys can we try something in the setup? *As long as we keep the focus on the task, I'll leave the posts alone. *If they get off track or are general rambling, would it be acceptable if I delete or edit out the garbage? *I would leave things like quality debate over ideas, just get rid of the excess stuff.

Instead of locking the thread, I think it would work better if we can post to the thread, but let me weed out the useless banter/off track stuff. *(I'm a participant in this too...)

Not trying to step on anyone's toes or hurt anyone's feelings with this type of moderation, I'm just thinking that the more focused and direct we stay to the topic, the easier it will be to get the basics ironed out and dialed in.

If the thread's locked, how would anyone be able to add ideas besides pm'ing me and then me having to take the pm and transfer it into the thread.

Let me know your feelings on this idea, please.

I would pull a lot of the posts from this thread and put them into the new thread too - There's a lot of good info here that needs to be in the new topic.

I also got hold of some really good info and rules from the TORC group that's been running "Lites" Down Under. *Their vehicles are a bit different than the Lites that we see up here in the northern half of the world, so it gives us more data to work with and some really good ideas and things to compare to. *Things that seem to jive with what we're trying to focus on should be given a fair chance. - it also gives us a good idea on the layout of how we should consider setting up the rules and such. *I'll go through the file I received and pull out a lot of it and post in the new topic.



Hopefully this makes sense, been downing painkillers for a ruptured tendon now for two days. The stuff is making start to think some squirrel is out to get me....Man, that's not fair... *Mine ran out a few days ago. *Wanna share??? * [smilie=blink.gif]





The squirrel IS out to get you, btw... * [smilie=icon_bolt.gif] *(beware of being tea-bagged by him at night - those little things are sneaky) [smilie=yuck.gif]

amergin
09-13-2007, 08:53 AM
The locked thread was just the finished Rule Book or draft version. For example, start an open thread for motor limitations. Everyone posts in that thread, you weed out the off topic stuff and keep the discussion moving forward. Once the basic outlines of the rules for motor size are worked out you then copy it into the locked rule book. the locked rule book is just one post which is the growing rule book document. Eventually someone would need to take that post into word, properly format it and create a distributable PDF file. At any time a person can copy out a bit of the rule book and start a new thread.

Desertkarts
09-13-2007, 10:56 AM
IN, stone city ranch
CA, San Diego
OH, Milford
IO, I Otta Went Around
AU, Hard to pull a trailer to.
MO, Sheldon
VA, Mechanicsville
MI, Dewitt
MI, Lansing
TX, Groves
MI, SW
MI, No City
NY, Buffalo
AZ, Yuma

This is where we are. How far would you drive to race?

Stone city Ranch race results does not show any mini racers. Just bikes now. Did I miss something?
Phil has three classes and no racers?

Short Sand Cars 100"
Sandbullet 101"
Tom Pro Design 102"
Yoshi 112"
These are still minis and there are many out there. I know when I start building again I will add the
14 inches to the Pantera model. Having the extra room to fit things would be nice. The longer wheelbase
would help smooth the ride. *

The only place to race minis on the west coast is in Central CA. Do they have a
wheelbase requirement in their rules?

When I went to Mikey Thompson Stadium events in the 80's the Pilot class ran the same course as the Super 1600's
and stadium mini trucks. The supercross part of the show ran it backwards. Steeper jump faces Super
1600's were about 117". Mini trucks about 120".

This is an interesting thread...

odypilots
09-13-2007, 03:00 PM
This is where we are. How far would you drive to race?

6 hrs. one way is about my limit for any kind of regular schedule. That gets me to Stone City and Spring Valley. 1 off races I would be willing to drive farther to.


Stone city Ranch race results does not show any mini racers. Just bikes now. Did I miss something?
Phil has three classes and no racers?

Stoneman and his son have been racing Stone City a bit this year, but they are the only ones I know of.

odypilots
09-13-2007, 03:04 PM
[quote="odypilots\";p=\"44147":g14psifi][quote="hero_saku39\";p=\"44133":g14psifi]FL 400 pilot.

Length: 96.4 inches
Width: 50.5 inches
Height: 57.2 inches
Wheelbase: 62.2 inches
Weight: 600 lbs.

Some of those measurements are inaccurate. Here's a scan of the Pilot manual.[/quote:g14psifi][/quote:g14psifi]
{quote} Sounds like Hero's measurements include either a Hondaline front bumper and/or a Hondaline rear bumper too. {endquote}


It was the width in Hero's specs that I thought was the most inaccurate. (I messed up the quoting thing [smilie=alright.gif] .)

Stoneman
09-13-2007, 07:58 PM
Five pages of replies concerning class rules is funny to me concidering not one person has shown up to actually race at Stonecity this yr.
If anyone ever does go to Stonecity you should call first. The buggy track is over grown, washed out mess. There hasnt been any reason to maintain it.

hero_saku39
09-13-2007, 08:11 PM
You guys want a new forum for this discussion? Then you could break out the discussion into various topics that will not get lost in and amongst the normal lounge topics. Not too mention more focused talks on the different areas of concern.

Also could add a new moderator just for this forum. Create a new locked topic for the Specs that the moderator is the only one able to edit/add new items. Any new area of consideration for the rule book should have a topic open for discussion. Once the discussion has been hammered out then open a poll, winner gets added to the first Rule Book draft. Once the draft is worked out then you go into review and for further discussion on the topics followed by a poll if needed to modify the Rule Book. You guys would become a Configuration Control Board (CCB) for the class rules. All else this would be a place to keep all discussion related to the Class in one area of the site. No searching for the topic scattered all over.

Forum title:Lite Class Discussion

Topics:Rule Book - Specs (Locked with one moderator updating)
Size
Frame
Weight
Motor

Hopefully this makes sense, been downing painkillers for a ruptured tendon now for two days. The stuff is making start to think some squirrel is out to get me....

There is a squirrel out to get you............and he's gonna tee bag ya when you fall asleep!

Edit: in an attempt to not look like an ass, I didn't read the other squirrel nuts/tea bag post before I made mine.

hero_saku39
09-13-2007, 08:32 PM
The squirrel IS out to get you, btw... * [smilie=icon_bolt.gif] *(beware of being tea-bagged by him at night - those little things are sneaky) [smilie=yuck.gif]

You suck..........didn't get back to the hotel till 7:30 and first thing I do is warn of the squirrel nut tea bag just to find out everyone else already has. *Now my post just looks lame!

Moderate away......moderators moderate.

Pacman
09-13-2007, 09:00 PM
I just want to know why you all have "teabagging" on your minds??? [smilie=shocker.gif]

ProtoDie
09-13-2007, 09:49 PM
Five pages of replies concerning class rules is funny to me concidering not one person has shown up to actually race at Stonecity this yr.
If anyone ever does go to Stonecity you should call first. The buggy track is over grown, washed out mess. There hasnt been any reason to maintain it.


Stoneman, we have been lucky enough to get alot of track time up here this year, and did not have the time to travel this summer.

Also I do hope that those interested in the rules, are interested in getting to the tracks, cause its a blast.

It's a slow process though, especially when you are building from the ground up and not strapping into a ready to go machine.

To get enough buggies, built up by,,,,well everyone interested, will take some time.
Building to similar specs will be great.
But kinda like you are stating,,,,even with no rules, it is hard to get enough buggy guys to the track to have some fun racing.

We had more turn out for racing this year than last. Hopefully it keeps growing for next year,,,,and so on.

For those thinking about it,,,,,,it gives you a place to ride (and ride hard) weekly or bi - weekly. *Yes I know when you finish or own a mini buggy, you can pull it out of the garage, and hit the field,street, desert, or what ever you have availible.

But when you have a scheduled race, well,,,,,it has been every other week pretty much for us this summer, it is awsome. * And it almost seems hard to get to the leasure rides.

Anyhow, it seems like it goes from vacation a couple of times a year to, really getting some use out of your machine.

I do like where this thread is going, lets get it figured out,,,,,,,,and then we can have the MBN Stadium Lite racing series traveling to your local tracks [smilie=icon_bolt.gif]


Just my .02 [smilie=biggrin.gif]

hero_saku39
09-13-2007, 10:09 PM
,,,,,,,,and then we can have the MBN Stadium Lite racing series traving to your local tracks

I hope this comes to fruition, for everyone's sake, cause my local track is Lucas Oil Speedway.

Rorty
09-13-2007, 10:27 PM
...even with no rules, it is hard to get enough buggy guys to the track to have some fun racing.

It's the perennial problem; interest is low because there are so few venues and you can't increase/improve the facilities without some guarantee of driver turn-out.

There are dozens of race codes world wide where often drivers are not dyed in the wool petrolheads (they're often white collar workers with no or little mechanical knowledge, but just enjoy rubbing wheels occasionally), yet they have the income to go racing on the weekends.

If these rules can be thrashed out and a few manufacturers offer regulation cars, and the venues can be locked in, people will hand over money to go racing. You only have to look at the off-road hire companies that provide corporate 'team building' days for business and industry. Those Italian-suited office dweebs throw on a helmet and overalls and regularly pay big money for the privilege. Some companies sell racing packages where, for a fee, they deliver your car to the track and maintain it for the duration of the season's racing. All the driver has to do is buy some safety gear and turn up at the track. That's great for the promoters too because they know the money's in the bag at the start of each.

If there's solidarity amongst competitors, car builders and promoters within this stadium racing revival (for want of a better term) you'll attract money from all sorts of quarters.

K-fab
09-14-2007, 06:34 AM
I will be more than happy to start working on being a spokesperson for Lites and see what I can get going for us as far as getting class rules ironed out, talking to race promotors and such. *But I will need help from everyone and anyone that wants to be involved.

Can you guys post contact info for some of the builders (mfg's)? *(I'm being lazy and not using the search function...)

If anyone knows of a particular person in the company to contact, that would be a great help.

C-Moore
Redline
Drak
and any other mfg that I've left out.

I'd like to call each of them and discuss the direction of the thread. *If we can get the people making Lites involved, that would be a large step in the right direction.

For that matter, how about the contact info and person at any of the tracks too? Anybody have that stuff? *Phil at Stonecity, Bob's Raceway, etc.

Hero - man, I would LOVE to approach the owners/operators of the track in your area - those CORR style tracks are awesome, but without us getting organized first, it would be pointless. *CORR is big time and if we want to go play with them, we have to step up and show them that we are just as serious as they are.

Keep it coming guys - if enough of us get behind this and we CAN make it happen.

ProtoDie
09-14-2007, 07:04 AM
Kfab, I think that would be great if you were the spokesperson, and want to spearhead this.

Here is Bob's family Raceway #616-693-2744 ,,,,,,ask for Bob [smilie=biggrin.gif]


Another track which is only 3 miles from Bob's is I96 speedway. * They are a 1/4 mile circle track(they have a 1/2 mile track too, but we would not run that), but they also setup an autocross track which we could run.

I have not run the autocross yet, but the owner was real cool and sounded like he would set up the autocross to suit us.

The owners name is Mike

I-96 Speedway
3823 W. Portland Rd., Box 535
Lake Odessa, MI 48849
phone: 616.642.0555
fax: 616.642.0525

Stoneman
09-14-2007, 10:20 AM
http://www.stonecityranch.com/

PilotHawK
09-14-2007, 12:34 PM
In the development of a "rules" book I think that current production single seaters (drakart, pilot/odyssey, cmoore, redline) need to be examined and used as a baseline for car size and powerplant considerations. Doing this will ensure that people can build a buggy similar to what someone cay buy "turnkey".

MC@ Performance Fab
09-15-2007, 02:14 PM
Just skiped thru some of this and most is fairly accurite. However i dont see a standard set of rules ever really happining. Tracks makeup their own rules and classes and if your lucky enought to live within a reasonable distance your in like flint. Most tracks will help set up a class if your group can guaranty enought cars, witch *in reality is quite hard. Getting say 25 cars to show up every race for a minibuggy style race is a lot of work and moneys.LOT OF WORK< LOT OF MONEY.

K-fab
09-15-2007, 03:33 PM
In the development of a "rules" book I think that current production single seaters (drakart, pilot/odyssey, cmoore, redline) need to be examined and used as a baseline for car size and powerplant considerations. Doing this will ensure that people can build a buggy similar to what someone cay buy "turnkey".

Just skiped thru some of this and most is fairly accurite. However i dont see a standard set of rules ever really happining. Tracks makeup their own rules and classes and if your lucky enought to live within a reasonable distance your in like flint. Most tracks will help set up a class if your group can guaranty enought cars, witch *in reality is quite hard. Getting say 25 cars to show up every race for a minibuggy style race is a lot of work and moneys.LOT OF WORK< LOT OF MONEY.

The whole idea of this is to get a set of rules up that we can all live with (yea, I know - that's gonna be one tough project [smilie=banghead.gif] ). *If we can get everyone to base their vehicles on a given set of rules and then show up at tracks with rules in hand, it will show that we've become more focused and directed in our class. *

We'd take the rules to the track owner/promotor/race director and say "Here, as a group of the Stadium Lites class, we're working on getting a set of rules that everyone can work with, please help us out by using these rules and allowing us to do the same." *The more unified we ALL are in our approach and the more we work together the more it will benefit us.

One thing that I do plan on getting on a soap box about will be safety. * [smilie=wacko.gif] *
That is the one major place that I feel we can not screw around with. *As I've said over and over, a couple extra hundred dollars getting the correct safety gear would more than be covered by one trip to the ER. *We just can't side step this aspect of our sport.

Racing IS dangerous - it's a blast, but the potential for being hurt is there from the second the green flag drops until you get back in the pits and get out of the car. *The more we can do to minimize the chance for getting hurt, even if it costs a tad more than one wants to spend right off the bat, the better. *I'll probably remind everyone about this over and over until you guys are ready to shoot [smilie=gun_gun.gif] me (and, since I'm safety minded, I'll be wearing my bullet proof vest. HA!! *[smilie=boogie.gif])


I've had a couple people e-mail me some contact info for a couple track - thank you.
If anyone wants to send me anything please do so - either via PM on this site or use K-fab@gcis.net (mailto:K-fab@gcis.net) * My old rwk@gcis.net (mailto:rwk@gcis.net) email address is so full of spam I loose a lot of legit e-mails.

Thanks guys for helping out and working on getting this idea off and running. *[smilie=bow.gif] *[smilie=blowkiss.gif]

I'll start working on getting a bit of a layout for our plans in motion fairly soon.

turbotexas
09-16-2007, 11:23 PM
odyssey's come out of the factory at 600#
pilots I have no clue but should be close...



Ok Ill start

70" maximum width, 10' overall maximum length.... At ride height....
700 lbs Minimum weight 1000 lbs maximum no driver....
5 *point harness minimum 3", Not out of date....
Window nets both sides, except for pilots with wrist restraints, Only exception...
Windshield screen no larger than 3/4 square hole opening, securely attached
Fuel tank must have roll over valve
Battery must be covered
Belt and chain guard between operator and Chain or belt In addition to the aluminum firewall...Must fully cover width and height of cvt drive clutch to operator
Aluminum firewall directly behind seat Minimum .60 ?
Dual front and single rear brake minimum
Roll bar padding around helmet contact are with tubing
!.25 x.095 dom tube minimum

Ok anyone else?

blaster
05-09-2009, 04:25 AM
mabe you could look at some specs put out by some of the people who already build or sell planes places like edge products rorty drakart protodie and work off these to let people race what they aiiready have.

fusionoffroad
05-09-2009, 09:57 AM
im new here but we already have class rules in CA.its more a midsized class but here it is .Class 1 Lites .we race in BITD , MORE , MDR , DRIVE ,GLENN HELLEN gold cup sieries,and working on the new stadium sieries under construction.
you can find the rule in BITD's rule book fore more details .it is called class 3000.
103 w/b
85 wide
transaxle
stock 2.2 or 2.4 ecotec motor
the rest is open and the cars are fast @ b.I.T.D Terribles 250 we would have been 10th in tt with 20 trucks , 12 in class 1 with 34 cars , 1st in class 10 , first in 7200 , and 1st in 1/2 1600.the cars are fast and extremly reliable"cheep to race".
sorry tried to download pics but got shut down