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Brawler
12-06-2006, 02:36 PM
Been lurking for awhile now but just recently joined. Tried to post once but i think i fagged it up. So try # 2. I am building three carts. One for each of my kids. Their ages are 11,9, and 5. They will each have 13 hp industrial motors except for my daughter. She will get an 8. The design is not state of the art by any means. I want them to enjoy these as they are kids so i need to build them fairly quickly. I need pics of how you can mount pillow block bearings to 1 1/4" round tube and make it look pretty. The below pic is all i have uploaded on puter so far.

KWiKSand
12-06-2006, 03:02 PM
The car looks nice. *Good deal getting the kids going so young.

I don't have any pictures, but basically you just need to make a tab to mount something like the Firewall mount or the steering heim

http://www.speedwaymotors.com/xq/aspx/p ... yGroup.htm (http://www.speedwaymotors.com/xq/aspx/parent_id.176/dept_id.178/qx/DisplayGroup.htm)

Rorty
12-06-2006, 03:12 PM
http://i20.photobucket.com/albums/b237/Rorty/PIX/Smilies/hello.gif Welcome to MiniBuggy.Net Brawler.
The [url=http://www.chassisshop.com/:3o4xzelb]Chassis Shop[/url:3o4xzelb] has steering bearing kits for different sizes of shafts, but they're not the cheapest place to buy (see the attached pic).

Any bearing house will be able to sell you a self-aligning bearing and two-hole pressed metal housing such as NSK's UB204 (for 3/4" shaft). You can either make a simple weld-on bracket to support the bearing, or check out these tab suppliers for a suitable bracket:
[url=http://www.aa-mfg.com/pdshop/shop/:3o4xzelb]A & A Manufacturing[/url:3o4xzelb]
[url=http://www.tabzone.com/:3o4xzelb]Tabzone[/url:3o4xzelb]

Alternatively, search just about any off-road shop for a steering bearing kit.

buildstoys
12-06-2006, 03:56 PM
Brawler,

Nice looking work.

Like Rorty said, you can just use some self-aligning bearing and mount to a welded tab.

http://www.dansperformanceparts.com/bug ... 0wheel.htm (http://www.dansperformanceparts.com/buggy/susp/buggysusp%20steering%20wheel.htm)

(Half way down the page under Steering Bearings)

Brawler
12-06-2006, 04:37 PM
Love the work most of you guys do on hear. Yoshi, Rorty, just to name a few. Thanks for the input. I have a bunch o keyed 1" round stock and coupling U Joints that i got from my last employer. We used this stuff on our conveyor system so i figured if its free ill figure out a way to put it to use. My kids have been riding each since they were two. I have a 1983 all stock honda atc 70 that they each needed to learn how to ride confidently. That was the rule for upgrading to a 4 wheeler. since they all have quads now, they all want "Go Carts ". I would rather build something they can use for a few years than something made in taiwan that will break on the first trip. I am by no means a master of fab work but i have built my share of rock crawlers. Bent up a lot of tube and welded even more. I'll get some more pics up when i get them off the camera. Like i said, going for simplicity and when they get the hang of their carts, me and the boys will start building a family car. i will be needing some major a-arm assistance. I have read a lot of the articles on here but i have never built or assembled a set. My firt attempt was kinda sad. I'll get pics.

Brawler
12-06-2006, 04:42 PM
Here are some pics that i just took. I told you it was scarey. Help!!!

nutnbolt2002
12-06-2006, 05:46 PM
What type of rack and *pinion did you use in that little buggy?

Rorty
12-06-2006, 05:54 PM
I haven't seen steering joints that size since I was run over by an earthmover. At least you know they won't break.

I don't want to appear negative, but as it is, your steering is going to be so heavy that I doubt if even you could drive the buggy comfortably, let alone your baby goats - the scrub radius looks HUGE! http://i20.photobucket.com/albums/b237/Rorty/PIX/Smilies/606f4798.gif
I would be looking at changing the upright's geometry to reduce the SR.

If you need help, we can oblige. http://i20.photobucket.com/albums/b237/Rorty/PIX/Smilies/santa.gif

Brawler
12-06-2006, 06:10 PM
What type of rack and *pinion did you use in that little buggy?


It's the 14" one from Dans performance parts. Cost like a hondo or somthin like that.

Brawler
12-06-2006, 06:20 PM
I haven't seen steering joints that size since I was run over by an earthmover. At least you know they won't break.

I don't want to appear negative, but as it is, your steering is going to be so heavy that I doubt if even you could drive the buggy comfortably, let alone your baby goats - the scrub radius looks HUGE! http://i20.photobucket.com/albums/b237/Rorty/PIX/Smilies/606f4798.gif
I would be looking at changing the upright's geometry to reduce the SR.

If you need help, we can oblige. http://i20.photobucket.com/albums/b237/Rorty/PIX/Smilies/santa.gif

School me please. As i said, i have never attempted anything like this and want to try and do it right so my kids can enjoy themselves. Yeah those are " one ton " joints. Ha Ha!!! By the way, it will have front tires. Those are some 22" polaris rears i had laying around so i used them to get an idea of how high the front would be.

Bugpac
12-06-2006, 06:33 PM
upper and lower ball joints, heims etc, should intersect with each other and the center of the tire, *"kingping inclination"


red circles are the pivot points...

yoshi
12-06-2006, 06:33 PM
[quote="Rorty\";p=\"20202":12zmt6n1]I haven't seen steering joints that size since I was run over by an earthmover. At least you know they won't break.

I don't want to appear negative, but as it is, your steering is going to be so heavy that I doubt if even you could drive the buggy comfortably, let alone your baby goats - the scrub radius looks HUGE! http://i20.photobucket.com/albums/b237/Rorty/PIX/Smilies/606f4798.gif
I would be looking at changing the upright's geometry to reduce the SR.

If you need help, we can oblige. http://i20.photobucket.com/albums/b237/Rorty/PIX/Smilies/santa.gif

School me please. As i said, i have never attempted anything like this and want to try and do it right so my kids can enjoy themselves. Yeah those are " one ton " joints. Ha Ha!!! By the way, it will have front tires. Those are some 22" polaris rears i had laying around so i used them to get an idea of how high the front would be.[/quote:12zmt6n1]

your king pin angle is the imaginary line drawn through your upper joint to your lower joint. *The line continues to the ground, if you want this thing to turn really easy, you need the line to hit the ground in the center of the tires contact patch. *Your line is yellow, you would like to have it line up with the red one.....

yoshi
12-06-2006, 06:34 PM
bugs getting pretty fast with them replies,..he snuck one in before me [smilie=ashamed.gif]

Brawler
12-06-2006, 06:41 PM
[quote="Brawler\";p=\"20216":z2j7tn0r][quote="Rorty\";p=\"20202":z2j7tn0r]I haven't seen steering joints that size since I was run over by an earthmover. At least you know they won't break.

I don't want to appear negative, but as it is, your steering is going to be so heavy that I doubt if even you could drive the buggy comfortably, let alone your baby goats - the scrub radius looks HUGE! http://i20.photobucket.com/albums/b237/Rorty/PIX/Smilies/606f4798.gif
I would be looking at changing the upright's geometry to reduce the SR.

If you need help, we can oblige. http://i20.photobucket.com/albums/b237/Rorty/PIX/Smilies/santa.gif

School me please. As i said, i have never attempted anything like this and want to try and do it right so my kids can enjoy themselves. Yeah those are " one ton " joints. Ha Ha!!! By the way, it will have front tires. Those are some 22" polaris rears i had laying around so i used them to get an idea of how high the front would be.[/quote:z2j7tn0r]

your king pin angle is the imaginary line drawn through your upper joint to your lower joint. *The line continues to the ground, if you want this thing to turn really easy, you need the line to hit the ground in the center of the tires contact patch. *Your line is yellow, you would like to have it line up with the red one.....[/quote:z2j7tn0r]


Damn i suck!!! Thanks for the pics. They will help but of coarse it will cost more as i will need to build new upper arms. Great info guys. I'll post more pics when i get the scrub fixed. holy crap i cant believe i was that far off.

yoshi
12-06-2006, 06:50 PM
actually, I would build new lower arms, your connect points are already pretty far from the wheel, you really want them as close as you can which helps with travel, track width change and bumpsteer...
http://www.sinistersandsports.com/Proto_Gallery/mediafiles/l16.jpg

Gene
12-06-2006, 07:03 PM
Welcome Brawler!

Nice form to the frame and a very cool thing for your kids. You might ask too about bump steer and how to align heims and arms to minimize that. Other's may quickly correct me but with that style rack the heims for upper and lower a-arms should also be in line with the steerting rod heims on the rack.

This will also bring into play the obligatory Ackerman discussion, which is about your tie rod connection at the king pin. Basically you should be able to draw a line from the tie rod heim through the upper king plin and intersecting with the center of the rear axle.

Now comes the various opinions on Ackeman, good, bad indifferent. Ultimately you choose and then cut, grind and weld. With Ackerman the inside wheel turns more sharply than the outside wheel so there is less pushing on the outside wheel when turning.

Keep the posts coming.

masterfabr
12-06-2006, 07:14 PM
Opened another can of worms! [smilie=biggrin.gif] Thanx,Gene. [smilie=rofl.gif]

yoshi
12-06-2006, 07:17 PM
what, not discussions about rake, anti-dive, material choice, weld process????? *This thread is too civil, we needs ta spice it up a bit [smilie=biggrin.gif]

Bugpac
12-06-2006, 07:50 PM
you hang around here long enuff, you will be rebuilding every part of your car, take it from a pro, i learn something every time i log on here, except when masterfaber is on his???????!!!!?!?!?!!!>?!?!?!@?1?!?!!?1/!?!?! kick, i have changed so much shit its not even fun anymore.... [smilie=blink.gif]

Brawler
12-06-2006, 07:51 PM
what, not discussions about rake, anti-dive, material choice, weld process????? *This thread is too civil, we needs ta spice it up a bit [smilie=biggrin.gif]

No wonder people pay to have this crap built. My fawkin brain hurts just from reading all the new terms i no nothing about. At least i was smart enough to use a rack instead of that other crap. I didnt really want to have to go back to school and learn geometry all over again but i guess if i want to do it right the first time i better start doing better research.

So both points on the king pin "upper and lower" need to intersect with the center of the tire? Does tire width change that position? Would it be cheesey to sleeve the lower arms .095 wall 1 1/4" with .095 wall 1" and then extend to proper length and go from there? Sounds cheesey just saying it. You ever get that feeling you got in over your head? Maybe i should have gone with no suspension. Fawk that i'm up for the challenge.

Thanks every body. Keep the info coming when you see i need it.
Yoshi, thanks for the bushing info.

Bugpac
12-06-2006, 08:01 PM
tire height width offset, they all make a difference.....if you go back thru some old post in suspension, you can learn a lot fast.... [smilie=biggrin.gif]

boilermaker
12-06-2006, 08:07 PM
Just longer lower a arms isn't enuf you have to then change the spindle angle to king pin angle. Some body whip up a drawing for brawler,quick, before his head explodes.

Bugpac
12-06-2006, 08:11 PM
i think he gots the idea, he will need longer arms once he builds new upright....he will catch on fast.... [smilie=biggrin.gif]

Bullnerd
12-06-2006, 08:23 PM
Relax Brawler ,you obviously can fab with no problem.You can fix the uprights .Go here

http://www.minibuggy.net/modules.php?na ... highlight= (http://www.minibuggy.net/modules.php?name=Forums&file=viewtopic&t=1006&start=60&postdays=0&postorder=asc&highlight=)

Look at all the pictures of the uprights.Copy what you see ,weld a new spindle on ,and your done.You can chop the ends of the arms you have and weld the bungs in for rod ends.Go back to BUGS drawing(in your thread) and you can figure out the angle based on your tire dia and width.Not sure if you want it to go to the center or to the inside by about an inch.

If the link doesnt work look for ,Dune and Biklomens threads.Or search for uprights.

Bugpac
12-06-2006, 08:25 PM
square tube to, easy to work with, wish i had went that way, i used square tube on the rear, looks 10x better than my fronts....

Rorty
12-06-2006, 08:52 PM
Not sure if you want it to go to the center or to the inside by about an inch.
Up to 1.25" positive scrub radius is normally desibable, but in this particular case where the buggies are just for small kids, I would build the new uprights with zero off-set.

In other words Brawler, settle on a size of tyre and then build the uprights so the KPI meets the ground just inside the tyre centreline. This will create zero scrub when the buggy's loaded and the tyre patch has squished down a little. Don't fully inflate the tyres until the kids get the hang of their new toys. The soft tyres will make the steering a little heavier and prevent them from going to fast initially.

When they (or you!) have gaind a bit more confidence, then you can keep the tyres well inflated so the steering is nice and light for the wee darlings.

http://i20.photobucket.com/albums/b237/Rorty/PIX/Smilies/9f41ddb7-2.gifhttp://i20.photobucket.com/albums/b237/Rorty/PIX/Smilies/afa1748b.gif

yoshi
12-06-2006, 08:56 PM
Just longer lower a arms isn't enuf you have to then change the spindle angle to king pin angle.

Actually, he already has king pin angle, it's just not proper. *Back in the day, there was one big bolt "king pin" that connected through the upper and lower mounts. *Today, spindles have 2 "pins" to connect to the spindle but people still refer to the angle of those points as king pin angle even though there is no longer a king king bolt. *It's not having the imaginary line go to the contact patch, it's the imaginary line through the upper and lower pick up points. *Proper king pin angle has the line hit in the center of the contact patch. *

His king pin angle may be wrong right now, but it's still a king pin angle....

bdkw1
12-06-2006, 09:43 PM
Don't make new arms, your using golf cart spindles (red line) welded to the uprights (yellow line). All you need to do is re-angle the "king pin" on them a little.

The steering won't be any worse the way it is now than the millions of golf carts roaming the turf out there now. Plus it's lighter than a golf cart. For something of this performance level I don't know that I would bother with it.

http://i55.photobucket.com/albums/g122/bdkw1/untitled.jpg

nutnbolt2002
12-06-2006, 10:42 PM
Put it together and drive it. If you can't compare it to something you will think its perfect.

boilermaker
12-06-2006, 11:22 PM
I must have misunderstood what you said, because i see a bolt that is the king pin and no amount of changing the upright that the a arms connect will change the spindle to king pin angle. You can change the upright angle but all that will do is tilt the wheel, the king pin center line won't point at the center of tire contact unless spindle to king pin angle is changed . That may mean new spindles.Nutnbolt2002 may have the best answer, put together and drive it, have fun, then you will know what to do. *Boilermaker

Brawler
12-07-2006, 08:51 AM
Don't make new arms, your using golf cart spindles (red line) welded to the uprights (yellow line). All you need to do is re-angle the "king pin" on them a little.

The steering won't be any worse the way it is now than the millions of golf carts roaming the turf out there now. Plus it's lighter than a golf cart. For something of this performance level I don't know that I would bother with it.

http://i55.photobucket.com/albums/g122/bdkw1/untitled.jpg

What exactly is the king pin? I got the spindle term and the upright term. Is the king pin the 3/4" bolt that holds the hub on? I love all the good info and i love the look of the square tube uprights. I have shit loads of heim joints but welded bungs for 1 1/4" .095 i cant find anywhere. Thats why i went with this style of upright. Would fatter front tires be a problem for this type of buggy or should i use skinny fronts? *I live in Yuma AZ. so sand is everywhere but my kids prefer off road trails.

KWiKSand
12-07-2006, 09:18 AM
King pin refers to the angle between the two pivot points for the steering. *On old straight axle cars it was simply the pin that the spindle pivoted on.

nutnbolt2002
12-07-2006, 09:41 AM
With the amount of scrub that you have there go with thin tires.

bdkw1
12-07-2006, 09:41 AM
I have w00ter loads of heim joints but welded bungs for 1 1/4" .095 i cant find anywhere. Thats why i went with this style of upright.

[url=http://www.chassisshop.com/:5jebpfbf]The Chassis Shop[/url:5jebpfbf] has just about any bung you need. Just got to there online catalog.

yoshi
12-07-2006, 10:48 AM
[quote="Brawler\";p=\"20329":2m2v6h51]I have w00ter loads of heim joints but welded bungs for 1 1/4" .095 i cant find anywhere. Thats why i went with this style of upright.

The Chassis Shop[/url:2m2v6h51] has just about any bung you need. Just got to there online catalog.[/quote:2m2v6h51]if you don't mind getting your butt poked with a dry rod, feel free to use the chassis shop, lol. *This is who I use, best prices I found... *[url]http://www.rodendsupply.com/ (http://www.chassisshop.com/:2m2v6h51)

bdkw1
12-07-2006, 11:03 AM
There bungs might be OK, but i think I would rather shoot Myself in the foot than use there hiems.

Brawler
12-07-2006, 12:04 PM
[quote="bdkw1\";p=\"20335":29cqcp65][quote="Brawler\";p=\"20329":29cqcp65]I have w00ter loads of heim joints but welded bungs for 1 1/4" .095 i cant find anywhere. Thats why i went with this style of upright.

The Chassis Shop[/url:29cqcp65] has just about any bung you need. Just got to there online catalog.[/quote:29cqcp65]if you don't mind getting your butt poked with a dry rod, feel free to use the chassis shop, lol. *This is who I use, best prices I found... *[url]http://www.rodendsupply.com/ (http://www.chassisshop.com/:29cqcp65)[/quote:29cqcp65]

No body makes the ones i need. I will have to have them made or purchase more rod ends. The ones i have are 1/2-20 thread and i am using 1 1/4" .095 tube. The only ones i saw that fit this tube are 5/8". The rod ends are chromo so they should be strong enough. Ya think?

yoshi
12-07-2006, 12:15 PM
[quote="yoshi\";p=\"20340":3h4ywm2a][quote="bdkw1\";p=\"20335":3h4ywm2a][quote="Brawler\";p=\"20329":3h4ywm2a]I have w00ter loads of heim joints but welded bungs for 1 1/4" .095 i cant find anywhere. Thats why i went with this style of upright.

The Chassis Shop[/url:3h4ywm2a] has just about any bung you need. Just got to there online catalog.[/quote:3h4ywm2a]if you don't mind getting your butt poked with a dry rod, feel free to use the chassis shop, lol. *This is who I use, best prices I found... *[url]http://www.rodendsupply.com/ (http://www.chassisshop.com/:3h4ywm2a)[/quote:3h4ywm2a]

No body makes the ones i need. I will have to have them made or purchase more rod ends. The ones i have are 1/2-20 thread and i am using 1 1/4" .095 tube. The only ones i saw that fit this tube are 5/8". The rod ends are chromo so they should be strong enough. Ya think?[/quote:3h4ywm2a]Hmmm,..heims really aren't that expensive. *You might be better off getting some tube adaptors and going down to a 5/8" heim for the 4 points, that's what I run on my rails....

nutnbolt2002
12-07-2006, 12:49 PM
Why not get some different tubing, you don't need 1 1/4" tube for a arms. Get some 1" tube weld on some wheel stud nuts and use your 1/2" heims. Your only using a small honda engine.

Bullnerd
12-07-2006, 01:25 PM
Yuma huh?How do you like living there?

I live in NJ ,about as far away from offroad racing as you can get. [smilie=angry.gif]

Been thinking of moving ,some other members mentioned Yuma.

So i need you to talk me into checkin it out.

Brawler
12-07-2006, 07:12 PM
Yuma huh?How do you like living there?

I live in NJ ,about as far away from offroad racing as you can get. [smilie=angry.gif]

Been thinking of moving ,some other members mentioned Yuma.

So i need you to talk me into checkin it out.


The summer licks ball sack and the wind is stupid crazy. This time of year kicks ass. Lots of outdoor crap to do. Tons of exploring opportunities. Mines and dunes. Pretty nice place over all. I'm from Cedar City Utah so this is a huge change for me. Not to mention i am used to building things that go 1-5 mph not 40-50 mph or faster. Fun messing it all up and trying again though.

Brawler
12-07-2006, 07:26 PM
One major problem i just found is my rack steering unit turns the opposite direction as the wheel. what the crap????????? It worked fine on the other go cart it was on. I turn left and the wheels turn right. Any ideas?

Lonuf
12-07-2006, 07:31 PM
sounds like you need to flip the rack over.

Lonuf
12-07-2006, 07:33 PM
i have the same rack. just need to remount it. it gives you the ability to use front or rear steer.

Brawler
12-07-2006, 08:54 PM
i have the same rack. just need to remount it. it gives you the ability to use front or rear steer.



Sweet!!! Do you find it a good choice for your application or is it a big fat hunk a poopy?

Lonuf
12-08-2006, 09:03 AM
its a good rack for what you are using it for. just make sure when you mount it you put a plate on top and bottom. double shear the rack mounts.

Brawler
12-08-2006, 09:52 AM
its a good rack for what you are using it for. just make sure when you mount it you put a plate on top and bottom. double shear the rack mounts.

Got any pics of how you mounted yours?

Lonuf
12-08-2006, 05:47 PM
unfortunatly no. i will in about 2 1/2 weeks.