PDA

View Full Version : Steering reducer



timmy2424
11-21-2006, 11:03 AM
Anyone know where I can get a reducer to take my 1 1/2 turn rack down to a 1/2 or 1/4?

Rorty
11-21-2006, 12:19 PM
A 1.5 turn rack is pretty quick and 1/4 to 1/2 is far too quick: you'll increase the effort required to turn the wheel so much that you may not in fact be able to turn it. One turn is the absolute quickest I would recommend. You can buy steering quickners from most speedway shops with a ratio of 2:1 which would reduce your set-up to 3/4 turn.

Alternatively, you could reduce the length of your steering arms to achieve the same effect - assuming you havent mounted your rack yet. If your buggy is properly set up with no bumpsteer and you shorten the steering arms, you'll introduce huge amounts of bumpsteer, so modify the arms first, and then mount the rack.

[url=http://www.stockcarproducts.com/steer4.htm:3p4gfh5x]Howe quickener[/url:3p4gfh5x]
[url=http://www.jetmod.com/lightweight_steering_quickener.htm:3p4gfh5x]Jetmod quickener[/url:3p4gfh5x]

timmy2424
11-21-2006, 12:33 PM
Im going to use an inline powersteering off the new Yamaha Grizzly. So Im not worried about it being to hard to turn. I have tried the reducer to 3/4. It work ok but Im use to a Honda pilot and I like that real quick steering for the short corse racing that I do. My rack is already mounted.

bajatex
11-21-2006, 02:36 PM
How much are those power steering units?

bajatex

gordy
11-21-2006, 02:49 PM
only $1250!! * [smilie=bs_quesexclaim.gif]
bargain (not).

masterfabr
11-22-2006, 06:34 AM
Tell us more about it tho!

gordy
11-22-2006, 03:12 PM
Some new cars are using them. In Australia, Mitsubishi is using them in their small 1.3L colts. Their biggest advantage is that they don't need a hydraulic pump like traditional power steering. Which takes a bit of load of the engine.

They have a CPU thou that controls ho much assistance (speed) is applied to the shaft in relation to the speed your travelling. So that creates another problem. You need to feed the CPU with some information as to your speed. Or possibly use a fixed value or maybe a dial to increase/decrease assistance.

I think the best option is to look for a small car as you will be able to find a second hand unit at the wreckers. Yamaha is just asking a little too much for their unit! Generally they are called an EPS unit. You can probably find some on ebay!

Rorty
11-22-2006, 03:26 PM
A lot of small European cars have been using EPS for some time now. They are basically useless once removed from the car as their CPUs are so complex. There was a firm making a generic CPU for one brand of EPS, I think it might have been Visteon, but I can't find anything here to back that up. I was keen on trying it for a project a while ago and looked into it all, but at the time, I put it in the "too hard" basket.

gordy
11-22-2006, 06:10 PM
The yamaha one is made by showa, it seems to have only 2 input wires for the cpu. So im guessing this is just a signal indicating the current speed.

If this signal cant be emulated then maybe it can be fixed. So you could have the rack on say medium assist the whole time. The ability to change assistance levels isnt that important. Most cars dont do this with power steering so i cant see it being that big of an issue.

masterfabr
11-22-2006, 07:20 PM
Say more please!

timmy2424
11-22-2006, 07:30 PM
What would you do with the imput wires to make the *(Grizzly) unit work at medium or maybe ever full strength?

masterfabr
11-22-2006, 07:40 PM
How big are these things? How much amperage ? anyone got a pic? I don't have a clue about these things. *[smilie=blush.gif]

timmy2424
11-22-2006, 07:57 PM
I know the Grizzlys generator Puts out 35 amps at 5000rpm. Hayabusas put out 400 watts at 5000 rmp. I need someone to convert amps to watts to see if the busa can handle it. The unit looks like it weighs about 2 to 3 pounds. It about to size of a soft ball . Maybe a tiny bit bigger. Your steering shaft would run right though it , then to your rack.

Rorty
11-22-2006, 07:57 PM
It sounds pretty straight forward, even if the price is off-putting. Any idea on its output figures - torque etc? I just wonder if it's up to the task of steering a buggy, even a light one.

masterfabr
11-22-2006, 08:14 PM
any links to info or pics?

boilermaker
11-22-2006, 11:23 PM
I think it goes something like this -watts/volts=amps or amps X volts=watts, the amperage is roughly the same between the two but, you really can't judge the power needs of the EPS that way. That said if it works on a Grizzle it should work on a simulary equipted buggy. I read a few years back how GM was going to go to a 42v electrical system for more capicity to handle new EPS and other new addons. It hasn't happened yet. I'd like one on my buggy if i ever get that far. *Boilermaker

gordy
11-23-2006, 12:59 AM
Ohms law, I = P/E

so

400w / 12v = 33amps.

I think you would be better off with a small car version. For one its going to be cheaper, also stronger and if you cant work out how it works then you have a better chance of getting info.

If you could get the car started you could do some simple data logging to see whats going on at diffrent speeds etc. Probably a bit hard thou unless you test drive the car!!

Although im sure the CPU probably just takes a speedo signal and does its own calcuations. I saw an escort one on ebay and they said it could be retro fitted to older models. So chances are its the same speedo signal.

When i get my current build finished i'll be starting on a 2 seater. I'll definatley be looking at trying this out.

K-fab
11-23-2006, 07:24 AM
Just playing Devil's Advocate, but what happens if the unit goes out?

Do you still have steering?

If it's an assist setup, then it may be the hot ticket, but if it's a priority setup, I'd be very wary or I'd figure out a way to steer if the unit were to take a dump.

I know some hydralic systems still let you steer - as they are power assist. *Some don't - like on the Trophy Truck I was in last week. *It's a power assist setup, but you have little to no steering with out the engine running - or so said Pete, the guy that owns the truck.

Lack of steering on the TT may also be a function of the steering design and trying to turn 39" tall, 13" wide tires. *I don't know.

gordy
11-23-2006, 03:10 PM
but what happens if the unit goes out

Bad things!

I think they would have to be power assist. It would be to risky to install one in a car otherwise. Imagine if you blew a fuse turning a corner at 50km/h.

But it is a good point and something worth checking. I think its a really good idea all round. Especially if you could maybe fix the assistance level. You could have settings for say sand, dirt and road.

k-fab, I dont like your chances of turning those tires. It must take one hell of a hydraulic pump to power that.

Rorty
11-23-2006, 03:53 PM
They are just power assist units and their glory is, that when disabled, there is absolutely zero friction on the steering. Although, having power assist in the first instance rather hints at a tall steering ratio, so it may feel a little heavy without the PA.

gordy
11-24-2006, 04:09 PM
[url=http://cgi.ebay.com.au/Corsa-C-EPS-Column-Electronic-power-Steering-Rallying_W0QQitemZ110051500252QQihZ001QQcategoryZ1 0404QQrdZ1QQssPageNameZWD1VQQcmdZViewItem:3pfk87mp]Ebay EPS[/url:3pfk87mp]

bdkw1
11-24-2006, 04:30 PM
but what happens if the unit goes out

Bad things!

I think they would have to be power assist. It would be to risky to install one in a car otherwise. Imagine if you blew a fuse turning a corner at 50km/h.

But it is a good point and something worth checking. I think its a really good idea all round. Especially if you could maybe fix the assistance level. You could have settings for say sand, dirt and road.

k-fab, I dont like your chances of turning those tires. It must take one hell of a hydraulic pump to power that.

Can't be any worse then throwing a P/S belt. *Most of the TT's I have worked on are a little less than a turn lock to lock. When the motor isn't running it takes 2 people to turn the wheel. Even then you wind up with popeye arms.

bdkw1
11-24-2006, 05:08 PM
[url=http://cgi.ebay.com.au/Corsa-C-EPS-Column-Electronic-power-Steering-Rallying_W0QQitemZ110051500252QQihZ001QQcategoryZ1 0404QQrdZ1QQssPageNameZWD1VQQcmdZViewItem:26adfv5r]Ebay EPS[/url:26adfv5r]


[url=http://cgi.ebay.com/ws/eBayISAPI.dll?ViewItem&ih=014&sspagename=STRK%3AMEWA%3AIT&viewitem=&item=330052310267&rd=1&rd=1:26adfv5r]controller[/url:26adfv5r]

Hmmm, this is going to really simpify things I think.

Rorty
11-24-2006, 06:14 PM
Hmmm, this is going to really simpify things I think.
...and empty your bank account! *[smilie=alright.gif]

masterfabr
11-24-2006, 06:17 PM
Yeah, but do you think it's an idea to possibly pursue?

Rorty
11-24-2006, 06:56 PM
I really like the idea of EPS if the need for power assist is warranted. I can think of one person who'll be bidding for those items just for the bragging rights, but I don't think any mini buggies really need power assist. I know K-fab's exploring power steering for his new build, but he's going to be running 63" tall tyres IIRC. *[smilie=biggrin.gif] If the front end of a mini buggy incorporates properly designed steering geometry, then there shouldn't be any need for power assist, though some old school buggies with tons of scrub radius could probably benefit from some assistance - or a new front end.

Never mind paying US$230 for that EPS on eBay (though in this case he's selling the whole kit and caboodle), I can't understand how that bloke is charging over US$210 for his controller. I'm no electronics whizz, but I've seen custom CPUs knocked up for other applications for a shiteenth of that figure.

The rally boys in Europe and the UK will all be looking for EPS for their cars as it's the latest rage, but given a few more years, they'll become more widely available and prices will fall. Who knows, some company may even produce a retro fit EPS kit. Now there's an opening!

masterfabr
11-24-2006, 07:25 PM
Again,I agree.

bdkw1
11-25-2006, 01:16 AM
This is going to be a lot cheaper than the hydraulic system that I was contemplating on making.

And I'm pretty sure I'm going to need some sort of assist due to tire size, weight, rack ratio and terrain.

The controler box would be a last resort if I couldn't rig something.

Rorty
11-25-2006, 05:41 AM
If you're dead setr on using EPS, I would check in to the materials used inside the unit, if there are moulded plastic or pressure cast aluminium parts, they won't last long off-road! Just a thought, how about asking that eBay seller what make the unit is and then contact the manufacturer for some details.

masterfabr
11-25-2006, 07:02 AM
Hope he gets more info from the manufacturer than DBD was willing to give out about his gearbox!! [smilie=biggrin.gif]

Rorty
11-25-2006, 12:51 PM
Hope he gets more info from the manufacturer than DBD was willing to give out about his gearbox!! [smilie=biggrin.gif]

[smilie=bs_offtopic.gif] *The difference is, large manufacturers with proven products have nothing to hide and are often very ameniable if approached honestly and openly. The exception would have to be Suzuki - I've never come across such an obstructive and guarded company before in my life - oh, and Kartek (not that they're a manufacturer though). *[smilie=banghead.gif]

boilermaker
11-25-2006, 05:33 PM
lol *Rorty ,what size tyre, are you sure? i can picture that. Boilermaker

Rorty
11-25-2006, 05:40 PM
[smilie=blush.gif] Sorry, did I say 63" tall tyres? I meant to say 83" tall.

boilermaker
11-25-2006, 08:51 PM
I say there, isnt the size they use on florida marsh Buggy's.

Rorty
11-25-2006, 09:23 PM
Ah, so that's what K-fab's up to! *[smilie=biggrin.gif]