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dune
09-26-2006, 12:15 AM
Well, it's my turn to get going on one of these cool 2 place Rorty R82s mini's. I'm going to try and photograph as much of the build as I can. So keep checking back. I've learned alot from bikelomen's thread and now it's time for me to try. I'll start with a few comments of my experience with Rorty. He has been a tremendous help so far. When I ordered the plans from him he was very responsive and has done alot for me so I could get going on ordering materials prior to the plan cd arriving. I feel very comfortable building this car knowing Rorty is just an email away with all his experience.
I am going to do one thing differently than the plans call out. The plan calls for the Bottom Frame to be made out of 1.5" sq tube. I will be using 1.5" round tube for the bottom. I've already mapped out the bends and it looks to be relatively easy to make the switch. The upper frame will be made out of 1.25 and 1" tube as the plan calls for. I just like the look of a full round tube chassis. No other reason for the change.

My Fab Table built today: This was the first thing I've done for the project. The dimensions are: 9'-3"L x 5'W x 18"H (prior to castors) It's constructed out of 1.5"sq tube for all horz rails and 1" verts (webbing) with 1.5X2" sq tube corner legs. Side rails were built in a jig. This thing is rigid, level and true!!! It will be decked with 2 layers of 3/4" shop grade ply. This dimension will allow me to layout the entire lower frame on the top and install allignment blocks wherever needed. The table will also second for tube storage below in the webing.

renegadespec
09-26-2006, 06:15 AM
looks like your off to a good start, just watch out for your shins when you fill the webbing up with tubing :wink:

K-fab
09-26-2006, 07:20 AM
That's one killer looking table. I like the idea of having a built in storage area underneath it.

Instead of plywood, consider 1/8" steel sheeting. You'll discover it's easier to attach your grounding clamp on the table and weld away on the parts from there instead of having to move the ground clamp all the time.

bikelomen
09-26-2006, 07:49 PM
That is one sturdy table. After this you can build a tank if you want :P

Good job. Looks like your not going to cut any corners. I like the idea of a metal table too. Not having to clamp everywhere is a nice touch

Rorty
09-26-2006, 11:18 PM
For the benefit of others on the forum, the base of the R82s is specced for 35mm SHS (primarily to make it easier for noobs to get the base of the chassis started without fishmouths), but I wouldn't replace it with 38.1mm (1.5") tube, I would stick with the same 31.8mm (1.25") tube that is used for the majority of the chassis.

You’re off to a good start with that table – it’s about the sturdiest home built I’ve seen. 8)

I would add to K-fab’s comments; 1/8” steel would make an excellent top, but if you have room to set it up semi-permanently, I would go even thicker. A steel table is so useful; you can weld temporary “third arms” and “sky hooks” to it which can be ground off afterwards.

If going the steel top route, I would give the whole surface a really good spray with anti-spatter spray (or spray-on cooking oil – if you don’t mind the smell of BBQ) before you even pick up the welding torch. Steel tables are only good as long as they’re smooth!

dune
09-27-2006, 12:58 AM
Thanks for the heads up Rorty. I'll keep the bottom frame at 1.25

Bugpac
09-27-2006, 05:21 PM
my .02 cents worth, i have found 1.50 to be cheaper than 1.25, if it was me to do again wich i will, i will make hole car 1.50 x .095, seems most racing circuts are 1.50 minimum...just my opinion... 8)

even tho the protodie guys and myself are on bad terms now, i guess, there cars are 1.50, and the diameter looks far better than the smaller tube in apperance, it is more porportional to the size of the car i think...

Rorty
09-27-2006, 05:52 PM
I suppose it depends on whether you're a show pony or you're chasing every ounce for racing.

1.5" tube is over rated for this chassis. If you start putting big heavy/powerful car engine and trans in a chassis, then it may warrant the use of 1.5" tube, but I've done the figures on my chassis and 1.25" x .095" is even more than necessary.

For well over ten years, TORC stipulated 1.25" x .065" tube for the main elements of the chassis.

When I became Chief Scrutineer, I was instrumental in re-writing the TORC Handbook and I pushed hard for the tube size to be increased to 1.25" with .080" wall thickness.

The main reason for this was not what you might think. The .065" tube often proved difficult for non-professional welders to weld satisfactorily – people were either burning holes in the thin tube, or they turned the amps down and then just “stuck” the chassis together with chick poo. Both scenarios are undesirable from structural and safety viewpoints.

Changing to .080” wall tube meant home builders could turn up the amps and make decent welds without blowing holes in it everywhere.

There was a second, but lesser rationale for changing the wall thickness. Some of the early buggies that raced in TORC had big 500cc two-smoke singles fitted in them (YZ 490, CR 500 and KX500) and they could tear a chassis into pieces just idling in the pits! The frequency of the resonance from the big singles literally vibrated the thin tube until it would fracture.

While such defects would render a buggy un race worthy, the problem could be easily spotted during scrutineering and it was then up to the individual drivers to sort out the fault.

My own R5 race buggy is built out of 1.25" x .080" tube.

bikelomen
09-27-2006, 07:19 PM
Dune,
Just a question. From the pictures of your table it looks like you are using a gasless type mig welder. Is that true?

Gene
09-27-2006, 08:46 PM
Dune,
Looks good and best of all it will be available for subsequent cars. Keep it comin'!
Gene

dune
09-28-2006, 09:12 PM
Bugpac, Thanks for the input. The reason I thought I needed 1.5 tube on the bottom chassis is when I spoke with bikelomen he was using 1.5 sq tube for his bottom which was the closest size avail to the spec'd metric size. When I decided to go round tube for the bottom, I just assumed I needed to use the 1.5" round to keep the size similar. I'll let Rorty make the call on this one since he designed this particular frame.

Bikelomen, Yes I did use a gasless on the table. Because that's what I had on hand the other night. When I build the chassis I'm using a Robart gas fed mig. And yes I wouldn't trust these welds on a race or rec frame. I can assure you though, this table is not going to fall apart. Ha!
BTW: gotta love the spatter!!!!
Thanks
Tripp

dune
09-28-2006, 09:21 PM
Gene, I need to thank you for taking the time last Sunday and letting me stop in the shop and check out your project. I'm sure you didn't get as much done as you had planned. I really learned alot and you brought to my attention some great pointers/tips.

BTW: Unlike many I'm sure, Gene has access to a really cool fab shop with lots of room and tooling. ("spoiled rotten!")

Thanks Gene!

K-Fab, Bikelomen and Rorty, You guys talked me into it. I'm going steel top! 1/4" plate. "What was I thinking?"..... I'm done with wood shop!

Bugpac
09-28-2006, 10:02 PM
i have one point to steel top to make, not saying yeah or nay, but slag balls stick and always need be scraped off etc, wood no do, and wood can be screwed to for jigging , and removed real easy, and you can draw on wood for layout nice tight lines etc, i used wood.. plus wood can be replaced real easy and real cheap... 8)

dune
09-28-2006, 10:40 PM
Funny, I already topped the table with wood and completely laid out the bottom chassis rails. My original thought was as you said, make wood jig blocks (screwed down), easy layout, cheap, low maintnance ect. Then Rorty made some good points: sky hooks and spraying with cooking oil to help prevent slag/spatter stick. Also I won't mind taking the sanding disc to the top to clean once in a while or as necessary. Then I thought... I've been in a lot of steel shops/ fab shops and have never seen a wood top table when welding is the primary source of "Glue". Just have to do layout prior to oiling the top.

I think I'll manage and do fine with a steel top. so that's what I'm going with.

Thanks Bugpac,
Tripp

Rorty
09-28-2006, 11:56 PM
A wood sheet top is ideal for just one build and the guide blocks can indeed be glued/screwed down, but who ever builds just one car? Being able to weld temporary helpers to the table is a huge asset.

Dune, if you lay out the lines with a quality straight edge and a really sharp scriber, they'll be there for ever.

You'll need the centre line along the long axis of the table and then scribe a line either side of it, about 50mm to 100mm from the edge of the table. Then you'll need to scribe in the axle lines and a few others across the table for referrence lines to enable checking of tube and component positions. Job done! 8)

Bugpac
09-29-2006, 09:09 AM
A wood sheet top is ideal for just one build and the guide blocks can indeed be glued/screwed down, but who ever builds just one car? Being able to weld temporary helpers to the table is a huge asset.

Dune, if you lay out the lines with a quality straight edge and a really sharp scriber, they'll be there for ever.

You'll need the centre line along the long axis of the table and then scribe a line either side of it, about 50mm to 100mm from the edge of the table. Then you'll need to scribe in the axle lines and a few others across the table for referrence lines to enable checking of tube and component positions. Job done! 8)

seems he is building a rorty car, i was assuming it was for only one build. licensing etc.. wood great for one build, and its far cheaper..if i was going to build more than one car, steel would be the only way i agree... 8)

dune
09-30-2006, 12:18 AM
Wood, cheaper? no way! :) I "only" spent $326.00 on my 1/4" plate top today (5'x10" sheet) "Ouch!!!". bugpak, I am planning on building more than one car on this table. Probably gonna build a 4 seat full size chassis at some point down the road. I also wanted to have a nice table for whatever other fab I might be doing as well.


The table is done! The bottom frame is re-laid out and the plan CD arrived today. Thanks, Rorty!!

Just went and bought a new welder today. Just a little gas fed Miller 135
I was gonna use my buddy's Robart but figured what the hell. Also waiting on the arrival of my JD2 model 3 bender with the air/hydrolic kit . should be here by Tues next week. I was down in Medford, Or. on Wed and picked up a JD2 TN-100 Tube notcher from Medford tools also. Saw this in Gene's shop had to have it!

I think I'm getting close to havng what I need to get started. Cool! 8)

dune
10-04-2006, 01:18 AM
I was able to get started today. Picked uop the DOM tubing and went to work. As I mentioned earlier, I went with the round tube bottom frame. everthing seems to be going smooth. Was able to get the JD2 MDL 3 bender figured out pretty quick and started tacking the bottom frame together. The JD2 tube notcher worked out awesome as well. still have a fwew pieces left to install on the bottom frame but this is where I left off for today. Once I liked everything I went ahead and welded the bottom frame.

FYI: using 1-1/4" .095 DOM tube, The bends require anywhere between +4 to +6 deg additional to compensate for spring back. A 90 deg bend requires +6 degs on the bender. So I learned today... 8)

Heres the pics:

For my bender I used the pedistal that came with it and welded a trike setup with 2 locking castors and one free roller. This bender works sweet with the hydrolic pump kit :D I welded the trike tubes on top of the base plate to keep working hight as low as possible.

dune
10-04-2006, 01:28 AM
Bender rolling base pic:

Gene
10-04-2006, 06:58 PM
At this rate you will be finished before me!

If I had a shop and tools at my house I'd be done by now. Yeah, I'm fortunate to have a pal with a shop and tools who is kind enough to let me camp there for months on end. Oh! to have my own shop and tools!

Great start! I just know that this winter will be very productive. BTW . . . don't forget about GK Machine for those laser cut parts. Contact me if you need the lowdown...

Gene

dune
10-04-2006, 07:15 PM
Gene, Funny you mentioned GK Machine. I was just getting ready to contact you. I just about have cad files ready to take to them. I had to make some changes to the front pivot plates to accomidate the round tube lower frame. I also just ordered my steering rack and parts so I can verify mounting dimensions for the rack plate.

I'm trying.......

buildstoys
10-04-2006, 08:02 PM
Looking good!

I've got the same bender. My 1 1/4 x .095 also came out at +6 degrees springback, but keep in mind that will change with tube wall thickness - not just the die. Went the cheaper route and ordered a air/hydraulic cylinder that I'll custom fit.

Look forward to more progress photos.

Kasey

Bugpac
10-04-2006, 08:56 PM
im bending .120 wall and it depends on what degree of bend i am doing, 90 degrees gets about 5 springback were 10-15 degree bend gets about 3 degrees. i like the air over but the price is out there, 400 bux just for the power team ram.... 8)

dune
10-05-2006, 07:15 PM
Just got back into town and on the way home I just picked up my engine. :D I got an '05 CBR 1000RR w/4000mi and all the goodies still attached!!! The motor looks brand new. No road grime baked on the underside or the header. $1,200.00!!! on ebay motors (local pickup 10min from my house) 8)

I am gonna need some help re-configuring the wire harness when the time comes. Think I'll order the manual and a wire schematic.

Rorty
10-05-2006, 07:27 PM
Good score! That should do the job nicely. 8)

Bullnerd
10-06-2006, 10:01 PM
How do you guys find these motors on ebay?
When i go on there all i can find is complete bikes.
Someone please show me where to shop for just motors. :cry:
Thank you.
Looks awesome so far, looking forward to following the rest of the build.

Bugpac
10-06-2006, 10:02 PM
ebay search: gsxr engine, honda engine, etc etc....


here yo go, [url=http://search.ebay.com/search/search.dll?cgiurl=http%3A%2F%2Fcgi.ebay.com%2Fws%2 F&fkr=1&from=R8&satitle=gsxr+engine&category0=:1i1dfryr]gsxr engine[/url:1i1dfryr]

Bullnerd
10-06-2006, 10:09 PM
I"m an idiot. :cry:
Thanks bug.
I tried motorcycle engine and got 0.

Thanks again.

dune
10-08-2006, 06:55 PM
I just start in motorcycle parts then type gsxr engine ect...

dune
10-10-2006, 01:34 AM
Well, I was able to get some more progress done on the car. The bottom frame is complete minus the front end (pivot/rack plates, waiting on them to be cut) and the motor mount. So I removed the BF from the table and laid out and framed the Upper section. The R82S is basically composed of 4 sections or layers. The Bottom, Lower(all webbing),Upper(mid level frame) and Top section. Next I'll replace the bottom frame on the table and position the upper frame over top and suspend with temp arms while I cut and install the webbing.

Rorty
10-10-2006, 01:56 AM
Ooo-er Mrs! That's coming on nicely. Odd looking bottom layer! :shock: :lol:

dune
10-10-2006, 02:21 AM
Okay Rorty, you lost me... Odd looking because it's round tube or what.? :? I built it right over the laid out (blown up plans). radius corners in lieu of miters. She has broad shoulders and a tight little tail. Straight out of the Aussie Desert. :P
Tripp

Rorty
10-10-2006, 03:28 AM
Sorry, I didn't mean to sound derogatory - that's often the trouble with forums. I just re-read what I wrote and it doesn't come across well.
My comments were really in jest and I assumed you have everything sorted out in your head and you want to do it your way.

The problem I see is the straight length of tube across the back of the chassis with its open ends isn't a good idea. For strength, all ends should be either fishmouthed onto another tube or mitred.

Seeing as you are now working the Bottom Layer in round tube, I would have made each side of the rear of the Bottom Layer as individual tubes (rather than making a hoop with the rest behind that again). I would even have run each side tube up to the rear of the Middle Layer seeing as there are two tubes required there anyway.
Otherwise, I think you may end up with not very attractive, and not very strong, rear bottom corners.

I've closed my CAD puter down for the night, but if you want clarification, I'll do a quick drawing for you in the morning (it's 18:30 here now).

dune
10-10-2006, 08:52 AM
Okay, Here is what it looks like. My thoughts were 1. There will be vertical or webbing pieces tying this in to the the upper section. 2. The less little pieces the better. 3. I'm going with a round tube chasis and want bends instead of miters when possible.

Rorty
10-10-2006, 04:24 PM
Dune, this is what I meant:

dune
10-10-2006, 05:30 PM
With out a doubt, that is a stronger design. I was just trying to stick to the plan as much as possible minus the square tube. I guess I should of disscussed with you in more detail. I still feel thick my frame will work once all tied in. And I can always add some gussets or addt'l bracing if needded.
Thanks,
Tripp

Rorty
10-10-2006, 05:37 PM
I still feel thick my frame will work once all tied in. And I can always add some gussets or addt'l bracing if needded.


Absolutely. 8)

bikelomen
10-10-2006, 06:38 PM
Dune,
Looking great. I spent a long time trying to find the right manual as I have the same motor you just bought. Same year as well. I found the full factory shop manual with a full wiring schematic in the back of the manual.


http://www.repairmanual.com/motorcycles/2004/27/7/15076

I then stopped by Heads up performance and they prepped my wire harness and removed all the items I did not need on the motor (smog etc.) i was going to build a new air box but figured I will keep the old on on even though its huge I did not want to change the volume of the box and mess with the tuning or the secondary injectors.

bikelomen
10-10-2006, 06:39 PM
You know I looked at your photo of the motor again. Did you get the air box with the motor?

dune
10-10-2006, 09:55 PM
That is the only piece I'm missing. But have the orig. filters and sensors that go in it. also have part of the cover. I'll find one and do what you are doing (keep it simple). BTW Your buggy is looking Wicked!!!! :twisted:
Tripp

bikelomen
10-11-2006, 05:52 AM
http://www.gdlcycles.com/asp1/findmeMOD ... =air%20box (http://www.gdlcycles.com/asp1/findmeMODELPAGES.asp?bike=sport&qsmake=CBR%201000&qspart=air%20box)

This place is great

dune
10-11-2006, 09:54 AM
Great links. I went ahead and ordered the manual.
Thanks

dune
10-11-2006, 02:33 PM
Bikelomen, Did you vary from the plan on your TA mounts? It looks like you extended the mounting point rearward and installed the mounting tube on the indicated pivot angle in lieu of using un-equal length mounting brackets. Did you also increase the wheel base if this is correct? Getting close to this stage trying to determine the best setup...
Tripp

bikelomen
10-11-2006, 05:31 PM
Dune,
I had to modify the rear end to match my drive system which did indead lengthen my wheel base. If I could have afforded it I would have gone with the cassette drive Rorty has in the prints. Its a way better set up but I could not afford the bearings. I bought the rear bearing carrier and installed it as close as I could to the motor to allow for the chain drive and sprocket along with chain tensioner to fit and then extended the rear of the frame to line up the rear trailing arms with the drive system so everything was inline. The trailing arms are built per prints. The extensions I built on the frame will still get plated on top to over strengthen the whole assembly even though they should be strong enough as they are. I am also going to install a starter motor and flex plate to give the car electric reverse.

dune
10-11-2006, 10:29 PM
Gotcha! Looks like it's gonna work out just fine. I do like the idea of the trailing arm mounting bracket tube to be on the pivot line. Still determing which setup to go with. The reverse set up seems like a pain in the A$$.

I got the bottom mated with the top today 8) . Not until just before I bent the upper side-over the top tubes, did I realize they had an out of plane bend in them (16 deg) :o . It was supringly easy once I slowed down and put the brain to work. The frame is really coming to life and looking cool. I'll post some pics tomorrow.
Tripp

bikelomen
10-11-2006, 10:53 PM
If I had the cash I would go this route.

QUAIFE In-Line Reversing Box

http://www.quaifeusa.com/Motorcycle/cyc ... lecars.htm (http://www.quaifeusa.com/Motorcycle/cycle.htm?main=cyclecars.htm)

Have not seen it in any of the buggies on here. Bugpac was the one who brought it to my attention. Others have mentioned it elswhere in the forum. Like to see how it works out. Seems to be the cheapest unit for adding reverse so far.

Rorty
10-11-2006, 11:07 PM
They're designed to be installed in-line between the engine and a normal car diff with the engine turned through 90 degrees and a UJ adaptor fitted to the bike engine's output shaft in place of the sprocket.

They can't be used with sprockets on each side and they're not reknowned for their (bearing) strength and they spew oil, though that could be rectified by thoughtful venting.

Bugpac
10-12-2006, 04:20 PM
jaxsports has the same type of setup as well, they have ran as jackshaft numerous times i was told by the owner, tho there price is just a bit higher, After speaking with thwem last week, come to find out i know the owner, as there shop is only few miles away from me...

dune
10-12-2006, 06:57 PM
I think Gene has one similar. His motor is turned 90* and has a custom u-joint from the output shaft to the diff. he had his motor send in for modification. I believe he increased the output shaft demensions. From what I can remember.

Bugpac
10-12-2006, 07:13 PM
gene is using transworks.. 8)

dune
10-15-2006, 03:07 AM
Well, I have made allot of progress on the buggy ov er the past few days.
Most of the frame is complete minus the shock mounts, tabs trailing arm mounts, motor mount and some x-bracing. (I guess it's not as complete as I thought) :lol:

I met up with Gene on Fri. when we were picking up some plates we had cut By GK Machine. I have to comment on this place. UN-*&%$@#*-Believable!!! This is a "State of the Art" Fabrication facility!!! Mike Mader,(Production Director) was kind enough to give us a grand tour of there entire operation. This place is huge. He spent about 1.5 hours walking us around and showing us all the hi-tech laser cutting equiptment and all the different fab and weld stations ( only about 40 stations or so)

These guys can make anything and everything! I would highly recomend them to any one.

Heres some build pics[/b] These were taken tonight. We moved the chassis from the fab table to get started on the arms. I'll post some better ones tomorrow in the daylight. :twisted:

dune
10-15-2006, 03:43 AM
Yours truely, ready to "Hit-It" :twisted:

Bugpac
10-15-2006, 09:07 AM
looking good, only have 1 negative thing to say then ill shut up, you shouldnt weld nothing till the whole chassis is tacked together, easiker to move and change that way....but looking good... 8)

K-fab
10-15-2006, 10:04 AM
Oh how I'll agree with this one...

Tack everything first, then weld. I learned this lesson a few years back working on a project at ATV Racing - famous words from Neil "It looks okay, but it's not the way I'd do it." I must have ground off a hundred feet of weld that month...

2lcf
10-15-2006, 10:27 AM
looking good, only have 1 negative thing to say then ill shut up, you shouldnt weld nothing till the whole chassis is tacked together, easiker to move and change that way....but looking good... 8)

I'll agree with Bug and K-Fab.........tack it all then change what you want....then weld solid..........removing one or two tacks per bar is alot easier and cleaner than grinding a whole weld..........one more thing....on your front bulk head plates were your a-arms are mounting to the frame, are you going to angle them back(up) a few degrees or leave flat inline with the bottom frame rails.......if you ask most people, angling them up-back a few degrees will help with soaking up the bumps and not beat the steering wheel out of your hand............looks good, keep up the good work.......

dune
10-15-2006, 10:50 AM
I agree and all component areas that may require change will remain tacked until all is functioning and I'm satisfied with the fit and look. But the overall profile and perimeter frame of this buggy is not changing (other than maybe the front bumper which is not intalled yet) I am contemplating adding +2or 3 deg of angle of attack on the front end. I hear you guys on the "tack- it" concept "the more you weld, the more you cut out". "the more you cut out, the more mad you get"." the more mad you get, the less fun you have." "Pop! goes the weasel" and so on and so and so on......... 8)
Later
Tripp

_________________
"Your Hydrolic-Thermomic Bleeder Valve is in-operative!" "Repair at once!"

Bugpac
10-15-2006, 10:51 AM
looking good, only have 1 negative thing to say then ill shut up, you shouldnt weld nothing till the whole chassis is tacked together, easiker to move and change that way....but looking good... 8)

I'll agree with Bug and K-Fab.........tack it all then change what you want....then weld solid..........removing one or two tacks per bar is alot easier and cleaner than grinding a whole weld..........one more thing....on your front bulk head plates were your a-arms are mounting to the frame, are you going to angle them back(up) a few degrees or leave flat inline with the bottom frame rails.......if you ask most people, angling them up-back a few degrees will help with soaking up the bumps and not beat the steering wheel out of your hand............looks good, keep up the good work.......

that would be rake, and if your building per rortys specs, you probbally will not be inducing rake...again looking good... 8)

dune
10-15-2006, 10:56 AM
Hey Bug, How's your build going?

Bugpac
10-15-2006, 11:01 AM
lol, slow but going, waiting for wire harness to come back, should be mid week, just fired up heater in garage going out to mount fuel tank and radiator, front end is complete, moving to rear now, next few weeks will be weld chassis time for me, i will have everything except shock mounts in place...oh and money, need more of that to complete...

thanks for asking to,
ps.. you havent got that much welded, just tack the rest till you get further along, you will be fine... 8)

dune
10-15-2006, 11:06 AM
I hear you on the money. I have already spent quite a bit on tooling up and buying engine, parts etc... I quess I keep going until my wife beats me in the head :lol: On the frame...That's what I was thinking, I still a have a lot of parts and pieces to install.

Bugpac
10-15-2006, 11:12 AM
tooling the big part, and you spent the big money on that hydro bender to, i think i spent about 2k just to get going, but that was wifes idea pretty much, i will keep them for long time...

dune
10-15-2006, 04:18 PM
Yes, the bender once all done was prob around 2K but i'll use it allot. It is so nice to be able to roll it around and bend werever I want. I even have the foot switch/ pump on the base. Makes countless bends effortless. :D

Bugpac
10-15-2006, 05:32 PM
cool, mine rolls as well, mine is just homeade hydro version, no way was i bolting to floor shop is to small... 8)

Rorty
10-16-2006, 07:46 PM
looking good, only have 1 negative thing to say then ill shut up, you shouldnt weld nothing till the whole chassis is tacked together, easiker to move and change that way....but looking good... 8)

R82s Manual, P.17, 2nd para "Always assume nothing is right! That way, you will query every thing and check your measurements. Tack-weld each item (jigs, chassis, wishbones etc.) completely before fully welding. There is less chance of making a mistake this way, and less chance of distortion too. When tacking, try and place the tacks so you can get at them with a hacksaw or angle grinder, if necessary".

I used to drive my new buggy before I would strip it, weld it, paint it and rebuild it. That way you know it works.

dune
10-16-2006, 11:24 PM
Hey rorty, I read you the first time. :lol: Here's a picture of the front steering rack I'm going to have cut. this one will accomidate the front steer center load rack I purchased from Desert karts. 8)

dune
10-16-2006, 11:27 PM
OMG! I did the same thing! Something 's wrong with the server or something.... It says DEBUG MODE when I click submit

amergin
10-17-2006, 03:36 AM
It's this lame hosting company. We will be moving soon. The new site is almost completed. Even if you get the smtp.php unreachable error the post is still completed. Just refresh and it will show up.

-R

dune
10-21-2006, 02:09 AM
I Finally got the front arms done [smilie=evilgrin.gif] *and the pivot plate location dialed. I went ahead and built the jigs excactly like on the plans. Time to start shopping spindels/hubs. Next I'll start working on the rear TA's I'll Post pics tomorrow.

dune
10-21-2006, 11:40 PM
A few pics of the front uprights. No spindels yet. These were allot easier to make than I thought they would be [smilie=cool.gif]

bikelomen
10-22-2006, 12:25 AM
Looking good. You went with a thinner material on the front uprights. I wish I did

boilermaker
10-22-2006, 12:33 AM
Hay,if you dont mind, how much does your complete upright spindle weigh? Both of yalls. Boilermaker

boilermaker
10-22-2006, 12:38 AM
Also it doesn't look like there is going to have very turning radius. Boilermaker

bikelomen
10-22-2006, 12:40 AM
I think Dune has the same misalignment spacers I have and mine turns fine. My upright is heavy but i wanted it to be beafy so I went with a thicker material. I wish I would have gone a bit thinner like dune though. My upright is around 7-10lbs with the spindle

dune
10-22-2006, 02:03 AM
Bikelomen, not sure what you used. *I used 2x2x1/8"in. ST. I think the plans called for 3mil thick material. 1/8" is pretty close if not right on.... Hope they work out.

dune
10-22-2006, 02:07 AM
Also it doesn't look like there is going to have very turning radius. Boilermaker

I thought the same at first then I clamped a straight edge on the side of the upright. It's amazing how much there is when it transfers out to the tires.

Mine are not complete yet. Still missing spindle and steering bracket. I'll weigh them when they're done.


BTW has anyone used the JAZ products fuel cells? This is a 3 Gal *it's 8x8x15. I was thinking maybe 2. One on each side.

Rorty
10-22-2006, 02:35 AM
Really nice job Dune. http://www.cadtutor.net/forum/images/smilies/thumbsup.gif

I presume you VEED the side welds nice and deep before welding and linishing them all smooth? I wouldn't like them to burst open when you're hard into it someday! http://www.cadtutor.net/forum/images/smilies/cry.gif

Don't forget to go right through to the back side of the upright with the spindle spigot - that really ties the spindle to the upright and strengthens the whole assembly.

1/8" is 3.175 mm, so it's pretty much spot on size wise. http://www.bikechatforums.com/images/smiles/thumb_up.gif

Bugpac
10-22-2006, 08:25 AM
think about how you will pump fuel to the engine first...then buy a tank to fit...looking good to.. [smilie=cool.gif]

Gene
10-22-2006, 10:55 AM
Great start on the spindles. You are making it look easy to build that R82s.

Once a few of these are running Bob had better get ready because good do-it-yourself plans matched to what looks like an awesome car could be in demand.

Gene

dune
10-22-2006, 11:19 AM
Hey Gene, I had to have some more plates cut at GK Machine. A new rack plate and new rear hub carrier plates with a tighter bolt patten. Hows yours coming?

Bugpack, Do you have any recomendations for fuel delivery. I do know the Fuel injection requires positive pressure. Not sure yet whats out there that will work well for this application. I haven't done much research yet.

Rorty, Thanks, and yes I have full pen on the welds. I actually start with angled endcuts and leave about of a 1/32" gap. They start a little long in the jig then tighten up during the weld.

Gene
10-22-2006, 11:31 AM
Tripp,
This weekend I'm making additional gussets for front lower shock mounts, some gussets to carry load from rear upper pivot points to a cross brace and a stab at a dead pedal.

I removed the rear bearing carriers and did some grinding to remove metal that interfered with heim joints and now have the full range of expected travel.

I'm imagineering wider a-arms in back and relocating upper shock mounts. This is being done by holding up lengths of stock representing compressed and extended shocks of different lengths. Moving shocks in will require fuel tank and rear deck mods but I may have to just do it.

And finally I'm thinking about a sway bar because this car could get a little tippy by moving upper shock mounts inward.

I prepared a Change Order but have no one to submit (it) too since I am free of matrimonial chains. *[smilie=lmao.gif]
Gene

Bugpac
10-22-2006, 11:32 AM
dune, i know that my 03 gsxr 600 maintains 42 psi at the injectors, i myself am using the stock pump, if you got a tig welder, i would mount the pump inside the tank, and for the cost have gk laser cut the tank for you, if you are using gsxr motor contact protodie he has the cnc stuff for the mount already, he will gie you a good price i am sure....i am not using a fuel cell myself, i am using the standad buggy g tank modafied to fit my needs...3.5 gallons plenty of fuel i think i got gas cans to....actually will end up at 4 gallons with the sump....ill have pics late in the week....but just look thru rowycos build he did the same except his sump is square, mine is tubing.... [smilie=cool.gif]

bikelomen
10-22-2006, 02:37 PM
Heres a couple of ideas. Whichever way you go in my opinion I think you want to try and use the stock fuel pump. It has the right pressure you are not guessing at and you dont have to worry about return *lines or regulators or expensive fuel pumps. Plus you just plug it in your stock harness.

I love the new Emotions *[smilie=drool.gif]

Bugpac
10-22-2006, 02:41 PM
i had a seperate fuel pump housing to start with, problem is has to have a high mounted tank or very low mounted fuel pump or a second pump and return line, mount it in the tank for sure.... [smilie=cool.gif]

dune
10-22-2006, 07:29 PM
Thanks for the info. I guess I'll have to make some decisions pretty soon. While I'm waiting on the addt'l plates I need to complete the rack mount and the rear arms I built an engine stand/mount that will drop into the car. It will allow easy removal of the engine and allow it to sit anywhere when working on it. Sorry gene if I stole your thunder. I'll submit 1$ to the "I Stole Your Idea Foundation" [smilie=evilgrin.gif] *I' ve been working on this all day and just test fit it into the chassis. *motor and all. I think I've spent about 3 hours or so on allignment and determining the CL of the engine. It sucks that there's no semitry on these bad boys. Anyway I think I have it where I want it so I'm gonna weld the $&@*! out of the mounts and call it good! Just BS'n Bug, I'll tack the mounts until the drive line is installed. [smilie=cool.gif]
Now I can start mapping out components

dune
10-27-2006, 12:39 AM
Got a little more done on the front end today. Been out of town for a couple of days so it was good to be back in the shop [smilie=biggrin.gif] . On the way out of town I stopped by Oregon Motorsports and talked with Kris for a while to figure out what front hubs/brakes I should use. I decided to go with the Tatum front brake kit with the heavy duty spindles. I was also able to pick up my front rack plate the other day from GK Machine and position it on the frame. I also installed a tacked in the front upright tubes that join the upper rail. I still need to position and install the steering arms and caliper brackets on my uprights. Here's some pics:

dune
10-27-2006, 12:47 AM
Caliper pics:

Rorty
10-27-2006, 12:56 AM
I really like the look of those hubs and discs. What length of spud is on their spindles? How does the scrub radius with the Tatum hubs compare to the ones in the manual?

How did you work out where to mount the rack? Have you cycled the suspension or done any calculations yet to establish the amount of bumpsteer (if any) with the new rack.

amergin
10-27-2006, 01:31 AM
Nice custom touches.... *[smilie=sign_l33t.gif]

dune
10-27-2006, 09:56 AM
Rorty, I'll be getting you all the info/specs on the spindles/rack/hubs *once I get a chance. I'm just trying to spend the little time I've had moving forward on the build. The rack can be moved up or down about 3/4" and the plate can be moved forward if need be. But I think it will function better if I keep it as close to the front pivot plate as I can and still allow removal of bolts, and tie rod clearance. My plan is to install the steering bracket on the upright as to allow for a paralell allign of the tie rod and the wishbones when viewed from the front for starters. Like Bikelomen did. Then adjust as nescesary. *I have not yet cycled the suspension or arms with the tie rods installed (still need to make them). Also need to mount the steering arms/brackets to the uprights. *
Tripp

dune
10-27-2006, 10:56 AM
SEATS: *I'm thinking of going with these Hunsaker Envy seats. Anyone purchased these before? Comments....

dune
10-29-2006, 10:19 PM
[smilie=big_explode.gif] Got a little more done tonight. Before I discuss I have to tell all you Off Road Freaks, That my son just won the 2006 Oregon State Championship MX Series in his class. It was a ten race series. at several diff tracks. He ran in the 85cc Beg class on his Suz RM 85 . He just started racing this summer and has been doing pretty damn good. On Sat we just got him a new CRF250R 4stroke and thats the bike he will keep racing with for quite a while. COOL!

Back to the Build: *I had to modify the steering arms to accomidate the front steer rack width and the fact that the pivot point of the rack is very close the same vertical elevation as the top wishbone inner pivot points. The 2x2 tube which is what I attempet to fab them out of interferes with the top upright pivot bolt so I decided to make them out of round tube1.25 round. with a fabbed clevis on the end. Next was to determine the best location for the arm to prevent or keep bump steer to a minimum. I ran the tie rod parallel with the top wish bone with the rack locked at center. this caused the arm to mount high on the upright (the reason I chose to re-fab the arms). once I like the relationship of the tierods, wish bones, and uprights I tacked the arms to the uprights and cycled the suspension. After the second attempt to position the Tie rod dead parallel to the wishbones, NO Bump steer! IF there is some it's visually un-detectable so thats good enough for me. Thanks Bikelomen and Rorty for the info.*Here's a few pics of the arms and one of my son with his monster trophy. [smilie=evilgrin.gif]

Rorty
10-29-2006, 10:31 PM
Very neatly done. http://www.cadtutor.net/forum/images/smilies/thumbsup.gif

Have you checked you've got full steering? The clevis looks like it could stop against the rod end before full lock is reached.

dune
10-29-2006, 11:00 PM
Hey Rorty, Yes I do. it clears the clevis with room to spare and stops at full lock. The only thing I can do to increase steering throw would be to trim the arm tubes down just a bit (shorter arm, more travel) but this also decreases the clearance of the tie rod from the outer rack edge. I only have about 3/16" clearance right now * This is a trickey setup with the front steer rack. The angle of the tie rod from the rack back to the steering arm has to clear the rack when oppisite steer input is given. This determines the length of the steering arm as well to allow for enough lateral clearance of the rack. It was a head banger [smilie=banghead.gif] * at first. Now that it works I believe it would be easy to duplicate.

dune
11-04-2006, 01:37 AM
Getting ready to hit the trailing arms hard tomorrow. Got my seats in today from Hunsaker [smilie=rockout3.gif] . They look better than I expected. The vinyl areas look like a carbon fiber weave. Pretty cool. My restraints should be following soon. I ordered the exact ones in the previous picture. I also ordered the Tatum 4 piston rear brake kit today from Oregon Motorsports. Yes, my wallet is starting to burn [smilie=big_explode.gif].

Also looking at wheels and tires. I'm thinking the BTR beadlock's 15x4 up front and 15x7 in the rear. For tires I plan on going with the MT Baja Pro's. 30x7 R15 up front and 33x9 R15 on the rear. Or should I go with the same all around? I've seen some race buggies with the smaller size up front and some with the same all around. Feedback wanted.

Thanks

dune
11-04-2006, 01:39 AM
This is the tire I'm looking at

Bugpac
11-04-2006, 07:08 AM
what stage of the suspension are you welded at, i hab to make my steer arms come in at a angle at full bump to get all i could from them? looks like you are coming str8 in, but looks may be decieving, and your uprights are really the determining factor of what tire to run....

masterfabr
11-04-2006, 08:05 AM
Not wanting to be negative but does anyone else think the steering arm where it welds to upright and the clevise is a little weak?

yoshi
11-04-2006, 09:00 AM
Not wanting to be negative but does anyone else think the steering arm where it welds to upright and the clevise is a little weak?I was thinking the same thing, this would be a simple gusset that would make it so much stronger, I think it would snap where the tube meets the spindle body with some load the way it is...IMO...

yoshi
11-04-2006, 09:03 AM
And if you can make it fit, a second gusset in front wouldn't hurt either, this would give you the best bracing from side to side...

Bugpac
11-04-2006, 09:05 AM
dune, i would wait till you get rubber on it before you weld any gussets etc, as i am sure you are going to want to set the car at full droop, and get the misaligment spacers close to max before you weld, that will give you all the possible angle available, just get tires first before you go adding all the gussets etc, imo....

yoshi
11-04-2006, 09:17 AM
dune, i would wait till you get rubber on it before you weld any gussets etc, as i am sure you are going to want to set the car at full droop, and get the misaligment spacers close to max before you weld, that will give you all the possible angle available, just get tires first before you go adding all the gussets etc, imo....Agreed but with a small correction, the rear one would be fine no matter what, but trying to get the one in the front could possibly be hit by the upper a-arm so it should be designed around the space when the car is under full compression, not droop. *The gusset will clear under full droop, it's under full compression that the upper a-arm will angle down to the chassis and could hit the gusset in front...

yoshi
11-04-2006, 09:19 AM
There may not be enough room under full bump and full turn of the wheel for the front gusset, in that case I believe the rear one would be more than stout...

Bugpac
11-04-2006, 09:21 AM
my bad. i meant set the heims angle near max at full BUMP, that will give maximum use of the misalignment spacer, if you just go in str8 you will limit droop travel by the tie rod, and have left over angle at bump. sorry i worded wrongly, when *a arms are str8 from chasis, or 90 degrees, you get the idea, my steer arms are at a angle so the heim is at an angle as well, at full bump i have about 4 degrees left in the misalignment spacer is all....

Bugpac
11-04-2006, 09:22 AM
and you cant really set any angles without the tires wheels, if you built per rortys drawings, im thinking they were not designed around a 30 tall tire, but i may be wrong....

Bugpac
11-04-2006, 09:28 AM
i will have the maximum angle, or real close like this, i wanted a little cushion at the end...

yoshi
11-04-2006, 09:29 AM
And not that there's anything wrong with your design, but here is another way to do it. *It's actually pretty simple and has all your heims mounted horizontal. *You have a piece of tube drilled and tapped for the bolt that welds to the spindle body, you then have a piece of tube drilled for the bolt on the end with a gusset behind to tie it all together...

yoshi
11-04-2006, 09:33 AM
and you cant really set any angles without the tires wheels, if you built per rortys drawings, im thinking they were not designed around a 30 tall tire, but i may be wrong....That's correct, taller tires will give you both more ground clearance, and closer to level a-arms as full bump which will give you more clearance at full bump for any additional gusseting you may want to do...

Bugpac
11-04-2006, 09:36 AM
this is what i am saying not to do, also you want to make sure when you turn the wheel your tie rod has the sam forward or rear angle on it, so it doesnt go past center, or str8, it may bind and cause it to lock because of the leverage, kfab said something to that effect before....


simple way for steer arms, just make them plates all way to spindle, box like 3 plates, mount rod end then fill center...

masterfabr
11-04-2006, 09:36 AM
I can't believe it. Bug and yoshi and I all agree at the same time.The world is ending! Better get in some seat time while you can. [smilie=biggrin.gif]

Bugpac
11-04-2006, 09:37 AM
when you mount the steer heim verticaly to mach the spindles heim, you cant use all the angle, as they are not on the same arc, and one will max before the other, the way he has is best, opposite of the spin heims...

dune
11-04-2006, 10:06 AM
Thanks for the input, I too have had some concerns on lateral loads being applied. I'll probablly add some gussets as yosi sketched. These are more like test bed uprights . One question for yoshi. I was looking at some of your spindles on your cars on your website and noticed that your tie rod ends mount to your arms only resting on top of your steering arm. This seems that allot of lateral load is applied directly to the bolt without any way to transfer energy throughout the rest of the arm. Just wondering how that design has held up.

yoshi
11-04-2006, 10:07 AM
when you mount the steer heim verticaly to mach the spindles heim, you cant use all the angle, as they are not on the same arc, and one will max before the other, the way he has is best, opposite of the spin heims...Depends, on my setup, my a-arms and control arms go straight out. *If I were to flip tyhem all horizontally, they would all bind at the same point. *If his setup is similiar, the control arm heim would bind at the same time as the other horizontal mount heims while turning.

Again, not saying his way is bad at all, just showing another way to do it as mounting them horizontal like that without figuring in a bit of angle for full droop will limit your travel.

I am rebuilding my spindles right now for 12 degrees more angle. *I moved my shocks mounts lower which gibes them more leverage which makes the heims stop the suspension insyead of the shocks. *I could run limit straps but I loose travel. *Setting my mounts up at 12 degrees more than the current setup gives me alot more travel.

If he has his control arm heim mounted horizontal *(which it appears he does) he will bind the heim and loose travel...

yoshi
11-04-2006, 10:09 AM
Thanks for the input, I too have had some concerns on lateral loads being applied. I'll probablly add some gussets as yosi sketched. These are more like test bed uprights . One question for yoshi. I was looking at some of your spindles on your cars on your website and noticed that your tie rod ends mount to your arms only resting on top of your steering arm. This seems that allot of lateral load is applied directly to the bolt without any way to transfer energy throughout the rest of the arm. Just wondering how that design has held up.You must be talking about the pics of the first rail I built a few years back, all my spindles are double sheer for the control arm now....

yoshi
11-04-2006, 10:11 AM
there is also a gusset below the mount that isn't on the top picture yet....

yoshi
11-04-2006, 10:17 AM
Just snapped a better pic...

dune
11-04-2006, 10:21 AM
Gottcha.. Thanks for the info.

dune
11-04-2006, 10:27 AM
are the new spindles cut from solid billet or fab formed the look like solid They are sweet!!

Gene
11-04-2006, 10:38 AM
Dune,
Looking good. Great discussion on suspension and since there is consensus (first ever?) perhaps elements of the discussion should land in some TECH article.

The BTR's are sweet and the tire combo looks good. Maybe I'll do something similar with my dual sport setup.

When you buy top notch components you get to enjoy the benefit of employment. Good thing there are other posts that give some hope for the low-budget builders.

Hey! Congratulations to your son. He has taken the NW MX world by storm. Now - keep him healthy so he can continue that dream.

Gene

yoshi
11-04-2006, 10:41 AM
the body of the spindle starts life as a solid 1.25" thick, rough plasma cut piece of steel. *We then machine it down, *press, then weld the spindle snouts that we build. *The 3 tabs that make up the control arm mount are plasma cut 1/4" plate and they are lined up with a slot in the spindle body so they are all the same...

http://www.sinistersandsports.com/in_progress/2_seater/mediafiles/l28.jpg

Bugpac
11-04-2006, 11:04 AM
whatever horizontila or vertical, mine the bolt is horizontial on the spindles, vertical on the steer arm, do as you wish, but mine didnt bind at same time, they have two diffrent arc patterns, i would strongly suggest you do as yoshi says, he has the knowledge.. allthough heims are best and last longer the way you have them....

yoshi
11-04-2006, 11:48 AM
whatever horizontila or vertical, mine the bolt is horizontial on the spindles, vertical on the steer arm, do as you wish, but mine didnt bind at same time, they have two diffrent arc patterns, i would strongly suggest you do as yoshi says, he has the knowledge.. allthough heims are best and last longer the way you have them....They only have a different arch pattern if the control rods and a-arms are not parallel with one another. *I agree there is stress on verticle heims *altho I think it's very important heims are not able to fold over on themselves or the misalignment spacers. *I don't see anything wrong with his current setup except the lack of at least one gusset behind the mount......

Bugpac
11-04-2006, 11:51 AM
well arc isnt the word, i guess it is radius, i tried it that way, and I didnt get the angles from them... i guess if you tried you would see...

yoshi
11-04-2006, 12:35 PM
well arc isnt the word, i guess it is radius, i tried it that way, and I didnt get the angles from them... i guess if you tried you would see...I started thinking about what you were saying and I decided to look at my setup. *True, mine heims are different but the angle you are talking about is clear as the wheel turns. *So, you are correct that the angle is different BUT here's the catch. *When the tires points in the control arm stays the same, as the tire points out, the angle gets noticably different but it doesn't effect anything because the angle is going back, therefore it's at less of an angle, the verticle spindle mount heims would actually bind before the control heim would..

dune
11-04-2006, 12:37 PM
At full travel, up or down none of my heim joints bind the way I have them. I do see your point on the steering arm It should angle/curve inward to reduce arm angle input such as a control surface clevis/arm. I'm sure I'll make some changes along the way. The round tube arm I do feel has more strength than it may initialy appear to have. theres allot os surface connection to the upright. *It's not like a piece of flat bar. But I'm with you guys on "stronger is better".

dune
11-04-2006, 12:48 PM
Bucpack's statement is absolutely true regarding reducing the angle change input by adding inward radius or angle to the arms. It will without a doubt help maintain a more stable plain throughout the travel range. as long as the movement does'nt go beyond arms radial travel range.

yoshi
11-04-2006, 12:51 PM
I could be wrong, I misread models i've looked at before on things but it appears to me the control heim is at less of an angle when the wheel is toed out. *It stays the same for straight and toe'd in. *I think it does this becasue of Kingpin angle otherwise the angle would be worse when toe'd in...

Bugpac
11-04-2006, 01:04 PM
the way yours are yoshi it is not a problem, mine and dunes are i say vertical, but whatever it is, bolt is horizontial, if you make the control arm horizontial as well, thats were the problem is, thats why i made my spin heims bolt hor, and control arm bolt vert...then neither stops the other, i can get max steer angle, and with high mis spacer on the control arm with the correct initial angle, travel is not a problem, exspecially on my car, i have about 18" travel with 76 wide....probbaly closer to 20 when i get the 26 tall tires on, and the spindle folding is an issue, thats were the shock comes into play, it will limit the droop, also will run straps.... i could travel more with droop, but i dont want to push the spindles angle to arms angle and have any chance of fold over....

yoshi
11-04-2006, 01:13 PM
the way yours are yoshi it is not a problem, mine and dunes are i say vertical, but whatever it is, bolt is horizontial, if you make the control arm horizontial as well, thats were the problem is, thats why i made my spin heims bolt hor, and control arm bolt vert...then neither stops the other, i can get max steer angle, and with high mis spacer on the control arm with the correct initial angle, travel is not a problem, exspecially on my car, i have about 18" travel with 76 wide....probbaly closer to 20 when i get the 26 tall tires on, and the spindle folding is an issue, thats were the shock comes into play, it will limit the droop, also will run straps.... i could travel more with droop, but i dont want to push the spindles angle to arms angle and have any chance of fold over....hmmm,..I don't know if i'm missing something or if there's something else going on, but if you were to rotate all of my heims so they were verticle (bolts horizontal) the spindle heims will always be the limiting factor if you look at the red lines, the control heim is either at the same angle, or less of an angle so it never restricts anything. *As far as droop, they all hit the same, at least mine do, the fold over at the same time without a shock on...

Rorty
11-04-2006, 01:56 PM
Good morning everyone - it's 6:45 a.m. down here. Looks like there's been plenty of activity overnight.

Dune, nice wheels and tyres. My main concern with tyres that tall is the change to scrub radius. With the geometry of the uprights, you'll now have negative scrub radius and that's really not desireable. If you do run those tyres (and I really like them), I would change the geometry of the uprights to correct the scrub radius.
Do your steering arms go right through the uprights, or are they just welded to the front faces of the uprights? I have used (through) tubular steering arms (with through bolts) of around the same length as you're using and they never gave any trouble. However, adding a brace would certainly strengthen them. Unless you jig the arms (not very difficult), I wouldn't make them double shear, however, I would use hi-mis spacers to give the rod ends a chance of matching the angularity of the ones on the uprights.

Bugpac
11-04-2006, 02:55 PM
yoshi, draw it on paper, you will see the control arm heim changes angle faster than the spindle heim...dont forget your spindle heims are stationary to say, were your tie rod is arcing as well, minimal degree diffrences, but either way the rod is ggoing to angle faster, either wheel in or wheel out, one way it will bind before the spindles....

rowycoracing
11-04-2006, 03:33 PM
Dune I run the Baja Pro's (and BTR wheels) on the front of my second mini and we run the Baja Pro's on all 4 corners of our baja car. *They are good tires. * They wear well and we have had very few flats (only 2 in 5 race seasons) on the racer using them. *Tim

K-fab
11-04-2006, 08:07 PM
yoshi, draw it on paper, you will see the control arm heim changes angle faster than the spindle heim...dont forget your spindle heims are stationary to say, were your tie rod is arcing as well, minimal degree diffrences, but either way the rod is ggoing to angle faster, either wheel in or wheel out, one way it will bind before the spindles....If I follow - bug's got it correct.

Yoshi - on the pix above -two things

Draw a line from the king pin perpendicular to the line that signifies the suspension arm.

Notice that when the wheels turn to the left the steering arm is farther around the arc than when you turn to the right?
That and along with the rack moving only in a single plane, not an arc - it just compounds the angle at the end.

Do you notice much ackerman at full turn? - it's not a bad thing at all...

dune
11-05-2006, 04:14 AM
Thanks for all the feed back people.

Got a bit more done today. Switched from the rear arms and concetrated on the front end (steering rack, shaft, shaft mount ect.) also seat mounts/hard points. My Buddy Brian came over and we started thrashing. *
Had to make an extension for the rack spline to allow the u-joint to clear the pivot plates and achieve the correct angle from the exit holes up to the shaft mount. I was over at OR. Motorsports and Kris hooked me up with the right parts and went ahead and fabbed me up the extension.

Had to make a shim for the Steering mount. Took a piece of 1.5 cut to size made one of my bends on the 1.25 mount tube and slid the1.5 on then made the other bend. Worked out slick. Positioned and welded. Of course this was after allot of time spent positioning/instaling the seats and determining the best fit for the steering shaft mount.

Trailing Arms tommorow.

Pics:

dune
11-05-2006, 04:19 AM
Where's the zoo keeper?

K-fab
11-05-2006, 07:45 AM
http://www.minibuggy.net/modules/Forums/files/fab_photos_005_web_113.jpg
I hope you guys were making buggy noises when that pic was taken.

Your gorilla buddy needs to keep his hands inside the vehicle at all times.
I'd hate to see him loose fingers in one of those dreaded shop roll overs. *[smilie=dancing.gif]

The stuff looks great.

I may have to look into converting my bender into a mobile hydraulic/pneumatic setup too. *That's nice!

dune
11-05-2006, 09:38 AM
I hear ya! Ever see a Gorrila eat bannanas without fingers? [smilie=blink.gif] *Me either......

The base was easy on the bender. I just made a trike setup with some 1.5x 2.0, mitered the ends, welded them on top of the original floor mount base(top keep working hieght as low as possible), added castors. Then Brian came up with a little angle frame to hold the Pump/Foot switch. Works great. [smilie=cool.gif]

dune
11-05-2006, 07:24 PM
[b]Question about traveland ride height???

1. How does one determinre the best ride height for a particular buggy?

2. Someone please explain or define "travel" in the sense of where is it being measured from with relation to the bottom of the frame. (center of axle, bottom of tire, bottom of frame......) Up and down combined or seperately.

3 I have some pics of the front end and the demensions of full up, full down, and level from the axles to the floor. Is there any way to determine how much travel I can achieve without compromising anything? if I were running a 30" tire and fox 14" stroke shocks up front *

With the bottom of frame at 17" above floor the front axles measure 20" when level. 30.5" full up with a 1/4" frame clearance. and 3.5" (bottom of upright on floor). *[smilie=huh.gif]

Bugpac
11-05-2006, 07:29 PM
you need tires!!!!! you want full bump with the bottom of frame few inches off the ground, you want full droop as far as possible without the upright having any cnhance of folding inward at top....

Get some tires!! you can measure carpola till then.... measure travel by the center top bottom etc doesnt matter, best way imo is to measure the frame, from 4" off the ground at full bump, then jack it up to full droop measure then.....

dune
11-05-2006, 07:40 PM
Thanks, bugpack. What about setting up ride hieght? and is the travel everyone is always refering to the full range or up and down seperately?
From the way it looks in my photos I should have a ton. And look at my axles at full bump. almost dead level. same at full droop

tenaja
11-05-2006, 07:46 PM
1. How does one determinre the best ride height for a particular buggy?
You drive it and experiment. The "rule of thumb" is to set ride height to use up about 1/3 of full travel.

2. Someone please explain or define "travel" in the sense of where is it being measured from with relation to the bottom of the frame. (center of axle, bottom of tire, bottom of frame......) Up and down combined or seperately.
Travel is the distance the tire can move. Some guys measure the overall distance it moves, even if the travel isn't *vertical. You can measure it from any point on the frame. You can also measure the distance the frame can move while the tires still contact earth.

3 I have some pics of the front end and the demensions of full up, full down, and level from the axles to the floor. Is there any way to determine how much travel I can achieve without compromising anything? if I were running a 30" tire and fox 14" stroke shocks up front *

With the bottom of frame at 17" above floor the front axles measure 20" when level. 30.5" full up with a 1/4" frame clearance. and 3.5" (bottom of upright on floor).
Just add it up...I find CAD very handy for calculating these measurements if you don't want to take a ruler to it.

Bugpac
11-05-2006, 08:06 PM
dunno what to tell you until you get tires really, its going to suprise your guesstimates..... i wouldnt buy any shocks till you get tires either, as tires are going to change a lot of things....looks good tho....

Bugpac
11-05-2006, 08:09 PM
actually if you want to guess, put jackstands under your spindle at 15" then set the frame four inches from floor, then jack frame up, measure to floor deducting the 4".... then do the same to see how much shock travel you need, pick attach points to measure from, keep in mind you want the shock to work for the compressed extended lengths it lists, then you will know what length shocks you need...

yoshi
11-05-2006, 09:26 PM
I just measured my spindle snout. *I'm running 28 inch tall razors, which I run with 26" rear paddles and 31" rear paddles, so you would be doing fine to run the same. *If you wanna see how much USABLE travel you have, set a jack up under the spindle snout (the part the wheel slides over) to be 13 inches off the ground, then raise your frame up, front and back level, until the spindles start to pull off the jack stand. *Soon as it does, measure the ground clearance at that point, then subtract however much clearance you plan to leave under full bump. *Example, if you measure 24 inches, and you plan to have the frame 4 inches off the ground under full compression, you have 20 inches of travel. *Now, that's where they bind on the heims, you need to have them backed off a bit , so I would take that number and subtract another 1/2" or 1" so they don't hit themselves. *You should have 19-19.5 inches of travel (with that example) asuming your shocks don't limit your travel in the location you set them up at...

Bugpac
11-05-2006, 09:28 PM
hmmm, thought i said that...lol

dune
11-05-2006, 10:20 PM
Tenaja, Bug and Yoshi. Thanks, this is the info I was looking for. BTW Yoshi the hiems do not bind at full up or down as far as can be seen in the photos. None of them. Wishbones, uprights, tierods. I hope this is a good thing. The Wishbones come into contact with the frame before binding. Also I will be able to shorten my steering arms about 1/2" which should give a little more steering.
Thanks

yoshi
11-06-2006, 07:18 AM
hmmm, thought i said that...lollol, pretty much. *13 inches is the height to set the spindle up if he's going with 28" tall razors though. *Also, he doesn't have to drop the frame down to the ground, he can raise it as high as it will go until the spindle comes off the ground, then deduct the full bump number. *It's basically the same as what you said, just 1 less step of lowering the frame. *I also wanted to make sure he knew to deduct a bit for heim clearance at full droop....

Rorty
11-06-2006, 03:48 PM
Dune, the R82s suspension geometry has been predetermined to provide the best all round travel, handling and ride comfort.

The amount of droop has been calculated to minimise scrub (track change) and therefore minimise suspension resistance. If you allow the suspension to continue below the designed optimum, you'll affect both the handling and function of the suspension.

If you alter the maximum predetermined amount of bump, you risk causing damage to both yourself and the buggy.

If you decrease the length of the steering arms, not only will the steering input be significantly increased, but the stresses on the steering components will be raised to levels they were not designed for and the strain on your forearms will probably make your driving experience less than enjoyable.

By fitting larger tyres than originally specced, not only are you compromising the steering geometry by passing from positive scrub radius into negative scrub radius, but again, you are also increasing loads on the suspension and steering that they were not designed for.

By all means, use the R82s as a basis for your own custom buggy, but a certain level of engineering knowledge is a prerequisite before making major alterations to primary components.

I mention all this only through concern for your safety and the performance of your buggy.

dune
11-06-2006, 07:30 PM
hey Rorty, Please don't get the wrong impression regarding suspension and travel. I'm not trying to exceed anything that the car is designed to handle. As for the steering arm/clevises, they are already longer than yours on the plan because of how the rack has to mount to the car in relation to the pivot plates and the angle of the tierods back to the uprights. There was a clearance problem which I have now fixed and can shorten the arms a bit but probably not to the speced length on the plans(still longer) . I plan on running the same size shocks that bikelomen has but I would like to run 30" tires which I feel will work and once installed we will check. and make adjustments to the uprights as you mentioned to fine tune any scrub issues. Once I get all the issues addressed I will do a complete survey on the setup and give you full details and as builts of the actual installation. There have been some changes that needed to be made which I will discuss with you regarding Wishbone mounting locations to the frame.

Tripp

Rorty
11-06-2006, 07:40 PM
That's cool. *[smilie=biggrin.gif]

dune
11-07-2006, 03:52 PM
Dune I run the Baja Pro's (and BTR wheels) on the front of my second mini and we run the Baja Pro's on all 4 corners of our baja car. *They are good tires. * They wear well and we have had very few flats (only 2 in 5 race seasons) on the racer using them. *Tim


What size wheel front and back would be best for the mini. The 15x4 or the 15 x7. My initial thoughts were to run the 15x4's up front with the 15x7's in the rear but I'm not sure what the best set up would be I do think I want to run the same size 30x7R15 baja pro's all around just wondering if I should go with the narrower wheel up front or just keep the same all around. [smilie=banghead.gif]

Thanks

Bugpac
11-07-2006, 03:56 PM
in general the narrower the tire the better they steer, but that has pros and cons to....you dont want a 4" wide tire to be out in the mud and snow with, since it offers no flotation....personal preference i think is what it comes down to.... imo i would run 28 tall or 26 and run at all four same tire, then you need only 1 spare instead of 2....

dune
11-07-2006, 04:32 PM
Bug, It's the wheel (rim) size not tire size I'm after you can run a narrower wheel with the baja Pro's and still get the surface. But I'm in agreements on the keep them all the same for spare purposes.

Bugpac
11-07-2006, 04:35 PM
yes i know, 4" was just a number.... what offset wheels you looking for? not sure how your setup, but you should be able to plug height numbers in and get the proper offset wheel to go with the uprights...

dune
11-07-2006, 04:48 PM
well the offset is 1.75 on the BTR 15x4 and I bekieve 2.25 on the 15x7 this is the only offset option they have. Either will be fine I believe

sw bill
11-07-2006, 06:03 PM
Hey dune,, I got to say you have done a very nice job so far, I started a Rorty R6 a couple years ago and just recently had to sell it.It was 90% finished,I hoped the buyer would post progress on here but he hasn't.
Anyway i started a Yahoo group for rorty buggys when i started the build and am looking for someone to take it over.There hasnt been much activity lately but i am sure it could be brought back to life.
It does have all my build pics posted.Check it out and if ANYONE want to take the group over its your or it will get shut down.
http://autos.groups.yahoo.com/group/RortyRacingbuggies/

tenaja
11-07-2006, 09:41 PM
Bill, I'd rather that yahoo group just disappear. With this site, the group would just be a pain in the neck to go check up on. We had that issue about 1.5 years ago, and that's why Rusty started this site...there was a group for Edge, one for DesertKarts, one for Rorty, one for Badland Buggy, one for generic buggies, one for everybody...and almost everybody was signed up for all of them, so you'd get the same stinkin messages on every single group. It was a hassle. Then, four months after this one started, some guy tried to start another one for Desertkarts...I suggested he let it go, because there are only so many mini builders out there, and it'd just get too watered down again. He couldn't let it go...until the site went four months without a post.

Now, we have one board that caters to everybody, and everybody is happy. Pictures are easy to post, easy to view, and we aren't limited to the pathetic little alotment that yahoo gives you.

Rorty
11-08-2006, 01:41 AM
Bill, I'd rather that yahoo group just disappear. With this site, the group would just be a pain in the neck to go check up on. We had that issue about 1.5 years ago, and that's why Rusty started this site...there was a group for Edge, one for DesertKarts, one for Rorty, one for Badland Buggy, one for generic buggies, one for everybody...and almost everybody was signed up for all of them, so you'd get the same stinkin messages on every single group. It was a hassle. Then, four months after this one started, some guy tried to start another one for Desertkarts...I suggested he let it go, because there are only so many mini builders out there, and it'd just get too watered down again. He couldn't let it go...until the site went four months without a post.

Now, we have one board that caters to everybody, and everybody is happy. Pictures are easy to post, easy to view, and we aren't limited to the pathetic little alotment that yahoo gives you.

Yup, this site is by far the best medium and yet it's seldom very busy, so there's no point really in bothering with the few unsupported Yahoo groups.

tenaja
11-08-2006, 08:41 AM
Oh, yeah...on top of that, ol' man Rorty himself hangs out here! [smilie=bow.gif]

Rorty
11-08-2006, 02:12 PM
Oh, yeah...on top of that, ol' man Rorty himself hangs out here! [smilie=bow.gif]

A little less of the "ol' man" if you please! *[smilie=angry.gif] *I'll have you know I'm only 21 (plus GST....at an extortionally high rate). *[smilie=biggrin.gif]

BTW, my productivity has dropped significantly since joining this forum - not that I'm complaining.

masterfabr
11-08-2006, 02:31 PM
So did yoshi's! [smilie=biggrin.gif]

Bugpac
11-08-2006, 05:18 PM
^^^^^^ * [smilie=ecstatic.gif] * [smilie=ecstatic.gif] *[smilie=ext_beer2.gif]

dune
11-08-2006, 06:55 PM
just ordered 4 baja pro 30x7R15's and the only two BTR Beadlock 15x4's left that I could find in the modern world. The Next shipment is on the slow boat and is expected by december. Most (but not all) of the websites advertising BTR wheels are out of stock.

The BP 30x7R15's are spec'd for a 4-6" wheel so I think I'll run the BTR15x4"s all around for starters.

Philabuster
11-08-2006, 07:10 PM
just ordered 4 baja pro 30x7R15's and the only two BTR Beadlock 15x4's left that I could find in the modern world. The Next shipment is on the slow boat and is expected by december. Most (but not all) of the websites advertising BTR wheels are out of stock.

The BP 30x7R15's are spec'd for a 4-6" wheel so I think I'll run the BTR15x4"s all around for starters.

With the Baja 1000 around the corner, I am not surprised. *Shortages happen every year because of this one event.

dune
11-12-2006, 11:37 PM
Got some more done this weekend. Brian came over again and helped out. He won't let me weld anymore considering how much time he has spent grinding out my ugly welds and re doing them. [smilie=gun_bash.gif].

I got the trailing arms fabbed and mounted (minus the shear webbing that I'm gonna have laser cut and center in between the tubes to box them in)
Picked up my Tatum rear hubs and brake kit. Still need the stub axels and bearings. Wheels and tires should be here tommorow. Just about got the motor cradel completed with pick points I had laser cut. Works awesome. My son and I went a picked up a cherry picker, built a spreader and raised that bad boy and set it in the car. More for fun than anything. *NO more Gorrila grabbing (Brian) the motor. * [smilie=thumbs_up.gif] *

Here's some new picks

dune
11-12-2006, 11:42 PM
A few more...

Gene
11-13-2006, 02:23 PM
Dune,

Looks good - the laser cut parts are nice and the design is remnisicent of bio-hazard.

Whoever came up with the pick-point idea should get a Christmas present.

Sometime we will need to compare notes on cost. I think you will have a very cost effective build once complete.

Gene

dune
11-13-2006, 02:42 PM
Hey Gene, Thanks. The theme for this buggy *is "Bio-Hazard" And the logo is basically the same with a few mods. *The engine cradle idea was definately yours. Thank you. I am however also going to incorporate the drive system into the cradle as well. It will serve several purposes.
1. I can allign the drive/gearbox with the engine under a *more controlled *environment (fab table).

2. The engine and drive system will always be inline with one another and the entire unit will be adjustable in all directions to best suit axle location.

3. It will allow easy removal of gearbox and or motor together or independantely.

4. And most importantly. It will be cool!

I've been talking with Kfab and he informed me that the RPM tranny box
will work with my engine so I'm checking with them on pricing and availability.


As for costs, I'm thinking around 11-12K running with some extras.
depending on what my RPM setup is going to cost. I'm in it for around 7K as of right now with everything I have purchased and ordered. *[smilie=big_explode.gif]

Pics of the Tilton clutch/brake pedal *assembly I ordered from Kris at Oregon motorsports:


Tripp

Gene
11-13-2006, 07:15 PM
Dune,

I saw that Tilton drawing today at Oregon Motor Sports and Kris said it cost a ton. Did I hear him right when he said 1400?

As for overall build cost you've really managed the keep cost down. That should inspire more than a few.

The integrated engine cradle idea you have going sounds intelligent and should be great for setup and maintenance.

Gene

dune
11-13-2006, 07:36 PM
Gene, That was the price of the first set we looked at. Very sweet setup but out of what I consider reasonable for this little buggy. The set I'm going with is a little less on the high end(NASCAR) side but I feel is much tricker than the traditional CNC and Lamar stuff (no offense). The photo's are of the set I'm going with. This set runs 200+$ and the required master kits (These come with several resivoirs included to choose from) *86$ ea plus the bias adjustment nob 50+&. I'm in it for around 550$ and still need throttle. The set I went with is avail in alum or steel pedals I went with alum. They're pretty trick.
Tripp

Rorty
11-13-2006, 08:26 PM
Dune, so are you saying you are going with the Tilton assembly, and it's $200+ and not $1400? Sorry, I'm a bit confused. Have you also checked out Wilwood's stuff? It's good quality, but I'm not sure how it compares cost wise with what you're looking at.

BTW, the self contained Girling type MCs are excellent and don't take up much space.

dune
11-13-2006, 08:32 PM
Got my MT Baja Pro's and BTR wheels in today. The tires are slightly different than what I was imagining. The smaller 30x7R15's have a different sidewall and are missing a tread row (4 instead of 5). The image on there website is obviously of there larger 33 or 35in tire. I was hoping mine would be a scaled down version of the larger. Not sure if I'm gonna run with these anyway. The 30" tire just doesn't look right to me on the front. 30's might be okay on the rear. but seem out of proportion with what I would like to see. Feedback welcome

See pics:

dune
11-13-2006, 08:38 PM
Hey Rorty. Sorry if confudsed you. No, the shop drawing gene saw at our local buggy shop is the one I first looked at. Not the one I went with. It was my first first choice until the price rang out. *The photos I posted is what I'm getting This set is 220-250$ or so without the master cylinder kits.. After purchasing everything needed I will be in it for around 550$ or so
The two sets look very similar but the higher priced one has all the goodies built on and the swing mounts and all are from billet alum with very high end masters. I think the ones in the photo's will work fine for me.

Nothing wrong with CNC. I just wanted some semitry and a racey look on the pedals. they didn't offer a reverse swing setup that suited my needs.
Tripp

dune
11-13-2006, 08:53 PM
BTR *wheels and Pro's mounted

dune
11-13-2006, 09:01 PM
Dune, so are you saying you are going with the Tilton assembly, and it's $200+ and not $1400? Sorry, I'm a bit confused. Have you also checked out Wilwood's stuff? It's good quality, but I'm not sure how it compares cost wise with what you're looking at.

BTW, the self contained Girling type MCs are excellent and don't take up much space.

Got this picture of the Wilwood reverse swing setup from their website. Very similar to the Tilton set I'm getting. With this set you still have to purchase the master cyl's seperately. Not sure of their pricing but its a nice set as well.

Rorty
11-13-2006, 09:11 PM
Damn those wheels are nice! What make are they again (I'm sure you mentioned it already, but a quick glance back didn't reveal anything)? The tyres look more like steer tyres for the front.

dune
11-13-2006, 09:15 PM
These are the Mickey Thompson Baja Pro's 30x7R15's

dune
11-13-2006, 09:17 PM
I think they are intended for steer tires on the full size cars but if you go to the micky thompson website the image is of the larger version and the tire looks more rounded and I was hoping of running them on all four. Know I'm head scratching.

Rorty
11-13-2006, 09:25 PM
You big silly! I was asking about the make of the wheels - not the tyres! *http://smilies.vidahost.com/otn/blobs/vuur1.gif

dune
11-13-2006, 09:28 PM
In my photo's they are mounted on the 15x4in. wheels intended for the front. I don't have the rear wheels yet. I was just putting one on the rear to see how it looked. I ordered 15x 7's today for the rear. I was hoping to mount the same tire on the 15x7 for the rear but as you can see the tread pattern differs from the larger versions and looks more like a steer tire. They may work or I'll sweap them out. still have time to think it over. What's your opinion Rorty?

dune
11-13-2006, 09:29 PM
Sorry *BTR wheels [smilie=gun_chair.gif]

Gene
11-13-2006, 09:35 PM
Sweet tires and wheels even if we only get to see one side at a time. And as far as pedals go, whew! That Tilton stuff is crazy 'spensive for the high end yet seems right for what you are getting - considering you also want style.

I'd have to see the car in person to form an opinion on the fronts. From the pics it looks like the diameter front to rear is good. Wider planned for the rear?

Every pic I see of that car gets better.

Gene

dune
11-13-2006, 09:43 PM
Gene, I *ordered the 15x 7's (wheels) *for the rear today from Moore parts. I was hoping to use the same tires all around but they aren't what I had planned as far as tread pattern. Look at the photos of the full larger size tires, *the smaller ones have one row less treads and a different sidewall.

I'm a little disappointed to say the least. But they are a good steer tire. very similar to their mini mag
Tripp

Rorty
11-13-2006, 09:44 PM
No worries - thanks.

If I was going to be racing in the desert, I would run the same tyre front and rear (probably the Wrangler AT on the strength of what K-fab has reported), but I'd groove the fronts to be more of a steer tyre and I'd carry another grooved one as a spare.

If I was just planning on driving a mixture of dunes and trails with some buddies, I would run something like those BajaPro steer tyres on the front with something like a BFG or Wrangler AT on the rear and not bother carrying a spare because a good buddy would always go fetch a spare from the trailer for you if necessary.

dune
11-13-2006, 09:48 PM
Rorty, What is your opinion of the front tire size in relation to the frame? too big? *I'm not stuck with these tires. There is always ebay.....

Rorty
11-13-2006, 10:02 PM
[ar5e covering voice] You know the R82s is set up for 27" tyres [/ar5e covering voice]. Having said that, the bigger 30" tyres do look really good on it and if you're prepared to modify the front uprights (for scrub radius) and ensure everything is beefy enough, then I'd say go for it! I would have to say that 31" would be the absolute maximum. Just keep an eye on the total weight of the wheels/tyres so it doesn't get out of hand - this is a "mini" after all.

dune
11-13-2006, 10:10 PM
I'm with you all the way. *Mickey Thompson does make a front steer tire called the mini mag I believe it is a 27in tire. I may end up going that route. and on the rear as you mentioned the wrangler in a 27./28in?

Lots of time to decide...

Rorty
11-13-2006, 10:28 PM
If you wanted to keep with Mickey Thompsons, their new Baja Radial MTX may fit the bill. They claim it's a long lasting tyre and it's available in 28" tall which would match the MiniMags just fine.

Interestingly, the 29" BTX weighs 36 lbs. and the 28" BTX weighs 27 lbs. which is obviously due to its different sizing and construction. I know nothing about these tyres though (anyone got any feedback on them?), but I'd be willing to give them a try as they're MTs.

dune
11-13-2006, 10:53 PM
That looks like a great combo! Anyone in the need for some brand new baja pro's?

Gene
11-13-2006, 11:17 PM
I might be interested in the Pro's if they fit my wheels. Plus shipping is what, like a beer?

Let know how much.
Gene

dune
11-14-2006, 12:10 AM
Gene, The MT Baja Pro's 30x7 R15's are recomended for for 4-6" x15" wheels. *I paid 130.00 plus shipping each. I'll sell for 100$ea. to a near by dune chaser! I just got them in today so they still smell new!!!! [smilie=biggrin.gif] send me a PM if these will work and you want them. I have 4 total take 2 or 4...

beer... beer and a half at least [smilie=ext_beer2.gif] shiping applies
Tripp

dune
11-14-2006, 12:22 AM
[smilie=ext_tease.gif] *+ *[smilie=haha.gif] leads to *[smilie=gun_chair.gif] + [smilie=gun_bash.gif] then to [smilie=gun_2guns.gif] +and *[smilie=gun_gun.gif] = [smilie=ext_doc.gif]

these emoticons are too cool ] *[smilie=cool.gif]

bdkw1
11-14-2006, 12:39 AM
I think they are intended for steer tires on the full size cars but if you go to the micky thompson website the image is of the larger version and the tire looks more rounded and I was hoping of running them on all four. Know I'm head scratching.

Those tire were made for the rear of 5-1600 cars. They have that profile so that you can get the largest tire possible without it rubbing on the body or being over the width limit. They will steer like crap on the front. Get something with a square shoulder.

If your worried about unsprung wieght then BTR's aren't the way to go. If you want a rim that will go 20 miles at speed with no tire then there the rim for you.

dune
11-14-2006, 08:58 AM
Are you refering to the pictures of the larger (33-35") tires?

The 30x7's have a totaly different profile. They look just like a taller mini mag They do have a squared off shoulder.

dune
11-17-2006, 11:43 PM
SHOCKS! [smilie=biggrin.gif]

Picked up my front shocks today at Oregon Motorsports. Fox 2.0" x 1.25" x 14"stroke coiless nitrogen.
He didn't have the ones I needed for the rear(18's). Still no sign of the sweet Tilton pedal cluster [smilie=dunno.gif].

I hate waiting for parts more than spending the cash on them. Matter of fact it sucks! [smilie=angry.gif]

Spent quite a while fabbing the mounts and finding the best angle for the stroke cycle. I will be getting between 16-18" of travel on the front. At full bump the chassis was set at 4" off the ground. I went ahead and purchased 2 MT mini mags for the front and had a couple of 28" (225/75R15) *Dean Wildcat Steel Radials mounted for the rear. Not the tire of choice I know. But my buddy Ross at Les Schwab Didn't have any GY Wranglers or BFG's on the rack, so we hunted for the best tread pattern we could find for now. They will be fine for testing and bashing around. I KNOW THEY ARE NOT THE BEST CHOICE! But they actually seem like they will do alright.

Picks of the front shock mock-up.

dune
11-20-2006, 11:45 PM
Picked up my Tilton pedal assembly from Kris at Oregon Motorsports today [smilie=biggrin.gif] . Got home and started mocking up the install. Installation was pretty straight forward. Made adjustable side rails out of 1"square tube. Just drilled additional mounting holes. Still need to add diagonal braces to complete the support. Just making sure I like the location first. The master cylinders came with 2 choices of res sizes and an optional remote res mount w/plumbing. Pretty cool. The assembley seems to be very good quality. Pics:
Tripp

Bugpac
11-21-2006, 05:33 AM
dune, sunman has a pair of 18" fox shocks he could ship asap if you need some still, 205 each shipping included, he pmd me yesterdy, he actually has 4 but im sure he will sell you just 2... [smilie=biggrin.gif]

dune
11-21-2006, 09:47 AM
Thanks bugpack, I'll look him up and get some details.

Bugpac
11-21-2006, 10:31 AM
cool, just pm him, he asked me the other night if i new anyone that needed them... [smilie=biggrin.gif]

dune
11-23-2006, 12:51 AM
Got the MT Mini Mags for the front in today. Switched them out with the Pro's. I think they are a better fit for this size car. Gene also stoped in and hung out for a while giving some much appreciated advice and help with my front suspension set-up. We (He) helped me locate a much better shock angle and mount position on the upper chassis. Thanks. [smilie=bow.gif]

dune
12-01-2006, 07:22 PM
Yes!!!! -Just got back into town from a job and the 18" fox coiless shocks (rear) I ordered from sunman greeted me in the shop.
* * * * *-Also my front upper shock mount plates I designed and ordered from GK Machine are ready for pickup in the morning.
* * * * *-And as I was driving home I received confirmation from Jay at Desert Dog racing that my RPM gearbox was ready to ship. [smilie=rockout3.gif] *

Time to get busy again!!!

Bullnerd
12-01-2006, 07:36 PM
Looking forward to seeing the rpm box in there.

Someday im going to build a r82 (hopefully the new one [smilie=biggrin.gif] )and i would like to use the rpm as well .

Good luck and......GET TO WORK.

Bugpac
12-01-2006, 09:03 PM
dune, will you ask g n k tommorow, what the longest length is they can cut, im looking in the 12' range i believe, want to get the chassis for the 32 street rod laser if i can with tabs, it will be complete box... [smilie=biggrin.gif]

dune
12-01-2006, 09:27 PM
Hey bug, I believe it's gonna be 10' most of there sheet stock is either 4x8 or 5x10. I will verify for you tomorrow. You could prob still do and have a structural drag- strutt or splice bar detailed in your design to join the two halves. they're machine is fully robotic and the feed table size would probably be the deciding factor.

Bugpac
12-01-2006, 09:35 PM
i could do that, i have to have someone draw them im not a cad guru, but the length just for knowledge would be great, appreciate it... [smilie=biggrin.gif]

dune
12-01-2006, 09:45 PM
No Prob. I'll find out

dune
12-02-2006, 10:08 PM
Today I picked up the front upper suspension bracket pieces I had laser cut @ GK Machine. These guys are awesome.
Got home and got to work. The brackets went together just as planned with the allignment tabs. Now the front suspension mounts are finally complete. PICS:

Bug, As I mentioned the laser machine can handle material up to 5'x10'x 1"max. Mike says the 1" is pushing the limit on the machine and they like to keep thickness just under an inch.

When I placed my last order I also had them cut me some misc. gussetts I also designed. These are 3/16".

dune
12-02-2006, 10:13 PM
A few more:

dune
12-04-2006, 12:24 AM
Worked on the rear Shock mounts tonight. Everything worked out good. At full droop the chasis is 23 inches off the ground. at full bump the chassis is 4" of the ground. 19" of capable travel. Rorty's geometry really paid off here. [smilie=bow.gif] *The camber angle changes are minimal up front maybe a deg. or two. *The rear tracks well and there is an expected camber curve as it cycles. Negative at full droop and positive at full bump. I hope I got that right [smilie=icon_question.gif] . Still not finished with the top rear mounts. Just the location is dialed. I will be adding some serious reinforcement here. *As for the travel, I'll Probably limit it to what the plans call for. I believe it's 18". * *Pics:

Rorty
12-04-2006, 12:44 AM
That's terrific progress Tripp and it's looking so good. Yes, you've got the terminology correct. Have you got your axles and CVs yet? They are what will limit your travel. I always optimise the suspension geometry past what it will ultimately realise. That way a much smoother curve is achieved, but, as you'll find out, it's not all useable.

dune
12-04-2006, 12:55 AM
upper mount will look something similar to this:

dune
12-04-2006, 01:00 AM
Hey Rorty! Thanks, *As you may have read I purchased the RPM Gearbox From Desert Dog Racing. The output shaft is at the bottom and with the flanges and CV's My angle is going to be very low. I will be able to install the output dead inline with the rear stub axles. I believe I'll be able to get most of the travel. Between 17- 18" at the rear. I hope.

Rorty
12-04-2006, 01:22 AM
I remember now. It's going to be a pretty wild ride when it's done. The rate you're going it won't be too long untill her maiden voyage. *[smilie=biggrin.gif]

dune
12-09-2006, 04:46 PM
Finally got to Roll it out!!! [smilie=non_banana1.gif] *Pics:

Rorty
12-09-2006, 04:57 PM
Excellent work! Hurry up and stick the damn engine in! http://i20.photobucket.com/albums/b237/Rorty/PIX/Smilies/headbanger.gif http://i20.photobucket.com/albums/b237/Rorty/PIX/Smilies/rorty_buggies_rock.gif

dune
12-09-2006, 05:48 PM
Rorty, the engine is next as soon as the RPM gearbox shows up. I'm trying!!! [smilie=evilgrin.gif]

dune
12-09-2006, 05:54 PM
In Black!!!

Rorty
12-09-2006, 06:09 PM
Very smart! I presume that's your business?

matchew
12-09-2006, 06:12 PM
I don't know if I can wiat for the new plans seeing this B@D@$$ car!!!!! I want one NOW!!!

dune
12-09-2006, 06:14 PM
Rorty, I design and cut vinyl graphics on the side. Started as a hobby for my giant scale rc aircraft. I dont advertise typically because it can consume too much of my time. I do custum orders on a "If I feel like it" basis. Got a pretty nice cutter though....

Bullnerd
12-09-2006, 06:21 PM
SSWWEEETTTT! *

*[smilie=bow.gif]

I love it,im dying to build one .

I like black cars ,but that red really stands out.

The only thing i would do different is make the top bar(roof)parallel to the mid bar.(seen from the side).

Looks great ,cant wait to see the rpm mounted in there.

dune
12-09-2006, 06:31 PM
SSWWEEETTTT! *

*[smilie=bow.gif]

I love it,im dying to build one .

I like black cars ,but that red really stands out.

The only thing i would do different is make the top bar(roof)parallel to the mid bar.(seen from the side).

Looks great ,cant wait to see the rpm mounted in there.

You know, I kinda agree about the roof line angle. It's a little (not much) steeper than what Rorty's plans called for. If the mid window horiz rail was installed it would break up the xdramatic angle change. I may do a swingout half door in that opening. Just need to design a rigid hinge and closure system Here's what it should look like:

Bullnerd
12-09-2006, 06:41 PM
Yeah ,that looks better.Prolly Rorty's plan.

I still like it paralell to the bottom,also.

Dont get me wrong that thing is totally sweet.

dune
12-09-2006, 06:52 PM
That's a nice car!. Here a shot of what mine may look like w/ a tire rack /wing

Bullnerd
12-09-2006, 07:04 PM
UUUHHHH,,,

Just kiddin ,spare tire would be cool.




So, are you sayin you'll do vinyl for other members? [smilie=biggrin.gif]

dune
12-09-2006, 07:38 PM
Oh sure.....Make fun of *then ask for favors....Bad stradegy [smilie=gun_chair.gif] [smilie=biggrin.gif]

Possibly, everything's negotiable. Pretty busy right now with work and this buggy. When I'm cutting graphics for mine that would be the best time to try and get something done.

K-fab
12-09-2006, 07:49 PM
http://www.minibuggy.net/modules/Forums/files/raceready_large_large_457.jpg
OMG - that is one old picture of the Dez!! *I believe it may have been it's first test ride w/bodywork.

Had a pile of crapola 800 twin in it, radiator was behind the seat backs, no roof. *Wow. *I forgot what it looked like back then!

dune
12-09-2006, 07:58 PM
K-fab, Was this one of your originals?. Very cool.

Gene
12-09-2006, 10:37 PM
Very nice. Great styling!

dune
12-13-2006, 02:58 AM
Got my RPM gear reduction box in the other day *[smilie=cool.gif]. *Very sturdy assembly. Also received my fuel pump that I got on ebay motors. Sent some more CAD files over to the laser cutter and have them cutting the pieces for my alum. fuel cells, floor pan and firewall. *Started working on the install of the gearbox last night. Got the radiator ordered and on the way. Also placed an order with Summit for some misc. fuel cell parts/foam as well as all my gauges. I went with the Autometer Phantom series on everything *(Monster RPM, oil temp, water temp, fuel level, volt, and mph in case I feel like hooking it up. Gene had mentioned that it's pretty easy to register these for street legal. I believe MPH gauge is one of the requirements. Who knows, it would be nice to see how fast these things are in the dirt also. Just about have the gearbox mount complete and alligned with the engine and rear stub axles.

Question: Once all is located and flanges/cv's are installed. What is the proper way to measure the axle lengths? Will I need to deduct any magic dimension for needed play or should it be a snug fit? Seems like a little play would be needed. Yes, No?

Thanks

K-fab
12-13-2006, 05:46 AM
K-fab, Was this one of your originals?. Very cool.Nope. *That is Tazcar chassis #5 (actually the fourth finished Tazcar). *ATV Racing makes it.

[url=http://www.yellowdogracing.com/dez.htm:twor24ky]Here's the life of the poor beastie.[/url:twor24ky]


Question: Once all is located and flanges/cv's are installed. What is the proper way to measure the axle lengths? Will I need to deduct any magic dimension for needed play or should it be a snug fit? Seems like a little play would be needed. Yes, No?If you can come up with a setup axle, it will make life much better. - setup axle is a regular axle that's been cut in two and has a tube over it and a couple of set screws. *Allows you to change the axle's length and then cinch it down so the length does't change. *Dial in the correct length, measure the axle, order the length... *I may have one laying around - pm me about it.

Anyhow the length you should base it on is the shortest - which will be when the axle and the output shaft are straight across from each other. *You should be able to draw an imaginary line from stub axle to stub axle and the line should go right through the middle of the output shaft.

Measure the distance from the inside of the flange on the stub axle to the inside of the flange on the CV cup on the tranny and then subtract about 1/4". *You don't want the axle to touch either flange, but you want it close.

In a perfect world, you'd be able to make the clearance just a few thou, but in our world stuff flexes and that 1/4" is a pretty good insurance distance that you won't crash the axle.

One other thing that's good about a setup axle is that it will show you what max travel can be before you bind the CV's by pulling the axle against the inner CVs too hard. *It can actually limit droop before the CV's get too angled out on some designs.

dune
12-13-2006, 08:04 PM
Thanks K-fab. That helps allot! *I'll get with you on the set-up axle.

Thanks

Here are some pics of the gearbox install. still have upper supports to work on. Just getting started on it. I'm building it so the gearbox and the engine can either be removed together or seperately. Nice thing is that when I pull the engine, it has its own frame to rest on when out of the car. Once all is good I can then allign the engine subframe with the chassis bottom and rear axles then install mounting brackets to the chassis bottom.

Also my rather large order from Summit arrived today!! Man they are fast! [smilie=rockout3.gif] *[smilie=non_banana1.gif]

Rorty
12-13-2006, 08:45 PM
K-fab beat me to it! [url=http://www.rorty-design.com/content/axles.htm:2qk0cnur]Here's the page[/url:2qk0cnur] from my site that describes a very similar procedure.

It's normal for the CVs to max out before the axles becomes too short, but some race CVs and non-plunging CVs offer far more angularity than plunging types and require a different approach.

If, when determining the axle lengths as described above and on my web page, there is more angularity available from the CVs, but the axles appear too short and look like they're in danger of falling out, then longer axles may be called for.

With exceptionally long travel set-ups, it's sometimes necessary to stagger (when viewed from above) the inner and outer CV flanges when they're all horizontal. They should be arranged so that when the outer CVs swing down to full droop, they are vertically aligned with the inner CVs. Staggering the CVs allows the fitment of longer axles when the CVs are horizontally aligned which therefore equates to more droop travel.
http://i20.photobucket.com/albums/b237/Rorty/PIX/Smilies/606f4798.gif

K-fab
12-13-2006, 09:01 PM
Your install looks really good. *http://www.yellowdogracing.com/images/thumbsup.gif

Take a look at the install I did - http://www.yellowdogracing.com/dezrx1install.htm

You want to use the bolts that go through the tranny as mounting points down low.

Make sure you mounted really solid, especially up in the same plane as the chain runs - you want all your pull on the tranny to go right to the two rear up tubes.

This pic shows what I'm talking about fairly well:
http://www.yellowdogracing.com/deztaz/RX1/toprightpowertrainview.jpg
Take a look at the loop that has the tab that attaches to the ear on the tranny.

Another couple of views:
http://www.yellowdogracing.com/deztaz/RX1/clutches.jpg

http://www.yellowdogracing.com/deztaz/RX1/trannytestfit.jpg

Here's the cradle:
http://www.yellowdogracing.com/deztaz/RX1/enginecradletopview.jpg

The majority of the bolts that go through the tranny have been upped to 3/8" (I think - they may be 5/16).

Any mounting is done in double shear. (except the top tab) *In the last pic above, you can see that the lower rear is missing the tab on the right side - it's a removable tab that allows me to pull up, rotate and then tilt the tranny out of the mounts. *Tough to get in/out, but makes for a very solid setup.

I found an old axle - it's going to be converted into a setup axle tomorrow - let me know if you're interested. *Do you happen to have a measurement from the inside of CV cup to CV cup?

dune
12-13-2006, 10:51 PM
Thanks guys, I appreciate all the advice/knowledge. K-fab, the bottom 2 mounting holes have been upgraded to 1/2" throughbolts sandwiched by 2 *3/16" plates/tabs I had laser cut and welded to horizantal tubes between the two side frames. A very strong connection. They are basically the same tabs one would use to mount to pivot points for trailing arms. I still have some gusseting and bracing to do. What cable are you using for the forward/ reverse *shifting. I'd like to incorporate the mounting points for the linkage with some of the rear supports. *Would like to see a setup if possible.
Thanks

dune
12-13-2006, 11:05 PM
K-fab, What's this? [smilie=big_explode.gif]

dune
12-14-2006, 01:20 AM
BTW, What is the threaded hole behind the piece of red tape for? No instructions came with my gearbox. * temp sensor or something?

Mike
12-14-2006, 02:38 AM
Where would I go to buying a RPM gearbox? *I may have to redesign the rear of my cuda a little to use one of these gear boxes with reverse. By the time you screw around with any other method of reverse you could have just spent the extra money on a Gear box like yours.

Mike

K-fab
12-14-2006, 05:27 AM
Tabbing looks good - I would still run a brace from the back of the car to the rear verticle tube on top of the tranny - or a diagonal from the bottom of the back mount upwards to the top of the front mounting tube. * - you have nothing that is in line with the pull of the chain.

On thing I see that you really need is a tab on the cast side of the tranny - the plate is good, thick and about as far away from the input gear (pull) as you can get. *You're gonna flex things. *Just mounting on the plate isn't enough. *The stand offs on the verticle upper mounting tubes just magnifies the leverage the chain will be able to put on it too.

The "What's this?" is just a piece of tubing that I was using for locating the output shaft. *If you look at the pix in the link I gave, you can see that before I cut the back of the chassis away, I'd made a jig that held the tranny in place via the output shaft.

The hole covered by the red tape is a breather hole. * 1/4 pipe, as I recall. *Put a 90 brass barbed fitting on it and then run a piece of 1/4 id tubing off of that. *Run a loop in the tubing before you send it on down below the chassis.

Shifter cable is a Morse cable.

If there is any way that you can make a positive locking setup for each position - F, N, R I highly recommend it. *There is very little room for error on the shifter setup - you want it to get fully into gear and then be able to hold the shift lever (the one you operate with your hand) in that position.

Mike
12-14-2006, 03:50 PM
Anyone have some rough drawings of this box so I can see how it will fit in my Barracuda? Some measurements would work as well.

I just sent Dan an email about getting some pricing and info on gear ratios.

Mike

dune
12-14-2006, 05:27 PM
K-fab thanks for the info. As for the gearbox mounts, by no means was I *even close to being complete. I am totally with you on the flex/twist movement that will occur when a load is put on it. Especially the top half due to the output shaft. I now have a very nice brace from the 2 back vertical tubes to the through bolt approx mid gearbox. *I will also be installing one for the top left mounting hole. I have enlarged the holes as you mentioned. I can only imagine how ugly it would be if this sucker got yanked from the mounts or even moved/twisted under load. A crappy ride at minimum and a torn up engine tranny amung other things nasty.

dune
12-14-2006, 05:29 PM
Mike, I'll try to get you some basic dimensions soon

Tripp

dune
12-16-2006, 11:24 PM
OK I got the engine/gearbox hanger completely done. It turned out pretty nice. The hanger has been alligned and mated to the chassis frame. Seems to be a very rigid assembly. It's nice to be able to drop the whole thing into the car.
It worked out well. Now if I just had my CV's [smilie=angry.gif]

K-fab, Rorty, *Question: Is it absolutely necessary to have the CV's installed prior to measuring for axles? When you were explaining how to measure them, you mentioned running the setup axle all the way in to both CV's touching the stub and output flange bases, then subtract a 1/4". This being done when the stub flanges are directly in line with the output flanges (straight line). Would I be able to achive the same demension without the cv's if I used a tube with sliding sleeve that I could extend into both flange bases, mark, *then deduct the 1/4" from that overall demension? trying to get going on this.

Thanks

Rorty
12-16-2006, 11:51 PM
K-fab, Rorty, *Question: Is it absolutely necessary to have the CV's installed prior to measuring for axles? When you were explaining how to measure them, you mentioned running the setup axle all the way in to both CV's touching the stub and output flange bases, then subtract a 1/4". This being done when the stub flanges are directly in line with the output flanges (straight line). Would I be able to achive the same demension without the cv's if I used a tube with sliding sleeve that I could extend into both flange bases, mark, *then deduct the 1/4" from that overall demension?
I always perform the setting up with the CVs installed, more because I want to see how much travel I'll get, but at the end of the day, it's only the flangeto-flange measurement that matters - you'll have what ever travel there is and there's not much you can do about it unless you start cutting steel.

So yes, if you at least install the CV flanges and measure from one to the other, then you'll get your axle length. BUT, just a word of caution: most CV flanges have semi-spherical cups, so if you just measure from the deepest part of one to the deepest part of the other, you'll get a false figure because the axle (IIRC) is 31mm diameter and therefore cannot reach fully to the bottom of the cups. If you stuck a 1.25" discs into the bottom of each cup and then measured AND deducted .25" for a safety margin, I think you'd be in the ball park.

dune
12-17-2006, 01:29 AM
Thanks Rorty, The system I was explaining is also how I centered up my gearbox/engine to the stub axles. It worked out well. I used an 1.25" tube for the main length with a piece of 1" tube that slid inside. I was able to insert the tubes between the flanges and telescope the tubes tite to the inner flanges and index/mark the tube then compare to the other side. Made lateral adjustments until I had exacting dimensions on both sides. Nice thing is that the output flanges have the output shaft face exposed inside to rest the smaller tube against and the stub flanges are dished so the the 1.25 tube will center up and rest neatly for measuring. Works pretty good.

Thanks

K-fab
12-17-2006, 08:42 AM
dune - those mounts look beautiful!!! *http://www.yellowdogracing.com/images/thumbsup.gif

The tranny's not going to move a bit.

dune
12-17-2006, 03:51 PM
Thanks K-fab. All of the gussetts/clips are 3/16" plate I had laser cut a while back. I had them cut me a whole bunch of different sizes that I designed in Turbo CAD. Knew they would come in handy. [smilie=cool.gif]

PANZER
01-06-2007, 02:17 PM
When you made your swing arms did you have to make two jigs one for each side?? *How long are they....they look long....

dune
01-08-2007, 08:10 PM
PANZER, *The Trailing arms are built to the demensions on Rorty's plans.

Not sure of the overall length at the moment, I'll get back with demensions.

As for the jigs, For the front Arms I built the jigs 1 Top and 1 Bottom. And on the rear arms I built the arms semetrical so 1 Jig is what I used but I built it right on the fab table. As for the length, yes they are long arms compared to a full size buggy but are needed for this design and travel. This is a very wide track car and if the wheel base was any shorter, te track would be wider than the length. My rear arms are going to be boxed in for addt'l strength.

dune
01-21-2007, 11:36 PM
Finally got got some more progress on the Rorty car this weekend. Just before Christmas I picked up a new Thermal Arc 185 TIG. An "UN-Discussed" Present to myself [smilie=ext_secret.gif] *[smilie=evilgrin.gif]. I have not had much time to mess with it. But today I was able to figure out how to TIG alum. *[smilie=cool.gif] Well enough to start working on my fuel cells. I also Took on the tideous task of fabing The header and exhaust. Man, what a time killer! It took Fri night and all day Sat. Turned out pretty nice., Even the kid thinks it's cool. Which means "It's Cool!" [smilie=cool.gif] Finished it off with a Yoshimura silencer and mid pipe that I was able to pick up at Pro Caliber Motorsports. Glad thats over with

dune
01-21-2007, 11:45 PM
Fuel cells