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ProtoDie
09-24-2016, 09:05 PM
Not a mini buggy,,, but still fun


77 Harley Sportster bike to trike conversion

Independent rear suspension, RPM reverse gear box showing up next week.
This is stock bike mount.
We are going to customize the frame and drop the seat and put forward controls on it.
So it rides like a "Big Wheels"


https://scontent-yyz1-1.xx.fbcdn.net/v/t1.0-9/14364665_10157756742605001_3834767038502756128_n.j pg?oh=fbf3cba91e6d2225de213264414db419&oe=587885B8




https://scontent-yyz1-1.xx.fbcdn.net/v/t1.0-9/14440871_10157756743525001_266962056759433884_n.jp g?oh=679b757e1c85c4be59533e56d2261832&oe=5870661B



https://scontent-yyz1-1.xx.fbcdn.net/v/t1.0-9/14469471_10157756744400001_691686832184177574_n.jp g?oh=98c62a0b148a02d808226c0ef75d6005&oe=58835FA1

nutz4sand
09-25-2016, 04:16 AM
Just a note. If you plan on making it street legal you cannot use the RPM tranny. There is SUPPOSED to be a diff in the drive axle. At least in Michigan. Better spring for the Jeffco.

EDIT: I DO realize a jeffco will not fit in that current rear end assembly.

ProtoDie
09-25-2016, 02:57 PM
yup, I'm aware there is supposed to be a diff. in Michigan

unlike making our new build buggies street legal, The bike already is already titled and street legal
was told by customer the registration does not change because trikes are still motorcycles so they should not need to even get inspections
Others say that with their insurance companies, the trike kit is listed as an add on accessory and they only increase their insurance for the added value

and then there are so many people who call all rear ends ,,, rear differential. Not realizing the difference between limited slip and a spool / locked axle
if ever needed, hopefully they just point to the gear box and say thats the diff and the person asking does not know the DIFFerence

nutz4sand
09-25-2016, 03:34 PM
I know the people think its legal but I will tell you if the guy is ever in a wreck a lawyer will OWN them. Hook line and sinker.

Like many who drive illegal things due to a loophole. Its Ok till they get caught. Once caught it does not matter.

Those with machines on the street that cops let go because the cops did not know are still personally liable in a court of law. They can try to blame the cop who let it go but I will tell you this will fall on deaf ears in court. Just because a cop OKed it does not make it legal. Believe you that.

The only way I would drive a non diff vehicle is if it was thru a business that was thru an INC. Then I would only loose the business but not my home and bank accounts (maybe)

I would not do it by choice.

Bullnerd
09-25-2016, 04:10 PM
DIFFerence......you are good!

Good points Nutz.

Kuma
09-27-2016, 07:22 PM
you could pull an axle off and call it a side car although I have seen side cars with a drive axle that comes foo the rear wheel, now I'm just confused.

Rat4020
09-27-2016, 07:26 PM
you could pull an axle off and call it a side car although I have seen side cars with a drive axle that comes foo the rear wheel, now I'm just confused.



Dam now I'm really confused
Funk it..Its bound ta be 5:00pm somewhere beer time

ProtoDie
09-27-2016, 09:08 PM
I have done a TON of research (ton more research that is)
talked to bikers and trike owners, looked up other trike manufacturers , looked into michigan and Federal law.....lots of hours

Many trikes are a locked axle and have been around for a long time, including ones made by other manufacturers
some trikes drive with one wheel and the other is free wheeling , some with a dead axle free spinning on one side, this would be an option on the rpm gear box conversion but I do not plan on doing it
some trikes are open diff, some LSD

as far as I can find thru much research the law for a limited slip differential requirement is for 4 wheel vehicles in Michigan and does not apply to bikes and trikes
so a locked rear on a trike is street legal

performance wise not arguing an open diff or LSD with a straight axle will turn without squealing tires in a parking lot


research also shows if a posi or locked rear end,,,independent rear suspension with a locked rear handles much better than a straight axle with a locked rear end

not a trike but I ran my 2 seat buggy with RPM gear box on asphalt road courses and it handled great,,, even in the parking lot

I am sure Nutz will puts many hours in to find where they are illegal,,,,, but I could not find that result over the past couple of days

Rat4020
09-28-2016, 12:04 PM
Carry on Jody,,, as they always have said in business ' The customer is always right". So build it man it's a cool project.

ProtoDie
09-28-2016, 05:43 PM
Thanks Rat,
Customer is right and confident in it.

first pics were with no mods to frame.
we cut the frame and dropped the seat ,,,,,,,,,,,I like it way better.
customer is really excited and happy

https://scontent-sjc2-1.xx.fbcdn.net/v/t1.0-9/14446039_1267908746560672_6386041981979949457_n.jp g?oh=222006413f0acbfe68e98ebfa1672e2b&oe=5869AA9F

https://scontent-sjc2-1.xx.fbcdn.net/v/t1.0-9/14502857_1267908616560685_3841623353073008281_n.jp g?oh=cf967245f4e3593c4e0b7a04969e1a94&oe=58678290

nutz4sand
10-02-2016, 12:18 PM
Here you go. ANYtime a drive axle has more than one tire it HAS to have a diff to be LEGAL. At least in Michigan. It may even come back to haunt the builder...

A person can take any risk they want but the legal ramifications can come back to haunt you. Note the last paragraph below as well as it calling for a differential in the list. If I or a family member are even hit by anything with a locked diff I will make dam sure the fact is used in my favor all the way.


PART 1 – VEHICLE NUMBER INSPECTION
I have inspected the serial number (the vehicle identification number) on the vehicle described above. The number is:
________________________________________ _______________________________________________
Vehicle Identification Number (if none, enter “none”) (Law Enforcement Only) VIN from federal Safety Sticker
I certify the information provided is true to the best of my knowledge.
__________________________________________________ ___ ________________________
Signature and Title of Person Making Inspection Date
________________________ __________________________________ (_____ )______ ___________
Agency/ Department Address Telephone Number
PART 2 – ON-ROAD EQUIPMENT INSPECTION BY A POLICE OFFICER
This vehicle has all the necessary on-road equipment as required by the Michigan Vehicle Code.
UNIT A – FOUR-WHEEL MOTOR VEHICLES
LIGHTS
Headlights (one each side, high and low beams)
Turn signals (front and rear)
Taillight (at least one, if equipped with two both
must work)
License plate light
Brake lights.
INTERIOR
Horn
Bright light indicator
Windshield wipers
Windshield washers
Brakes (adequate to stop and hold the vehicle)
Parking brake
Safety belts (1965 and newer models).
WINDSHIELD AND MIRRORS
Safety Glass (no plexiglas, sufficient size to protect
driver and passengers, no cracks, no obstructions,
non-transparent material prohibited)
Outside rearview mirror on driver’s side (adjustable)
Half-ton or more capacity trucks outside rearview
mirrors on both sides.
EXTERIOR
Bumpers (required on passenger vehicles, 14 to 22
inches above the ground except 4-wheel drive)
Tires (2/32 inch tread, no exposed cord or tread
separation, approved for highway use by D.O.T.)
Exhaust (good working order, no excessive noise.
Must include a tailpipe and resonator where the
original design included a tailpipe and resonator)
Differential gear.
Signature and title of police officer making equipment inspection for four-wheel motor vehicle:
__________________________________________________ ___ ________________________
Signature and Title of Police Officer Date
________________________ __________________________________ (_ ___ )__________________
Agency/ Department Address Telephone Number
TR-54 (08/01) Over for Motorcycle and Trailer Equipment Inspection


I then got this email;

Thank you for using the Department of State's web site.

ATV cannot be made street legal as they lack the safety equipment necessary. Three- and four-wheel all-terrain vehicles (ATV) cannot be upgraded for on-road use. ATV's are manufactured with a live axle, rather than a differential gear, which seriously affects their handling characteristics when operated on paved surfaces.




If you have other questions, feel free to contact us at 888 SOSMICH (888-767-6424).

ProtoDie
10-02-2016, 01:14 PM
seriously???
I was joking but I am all about the facts,,,,as long as they are correct.
yes I know this list,,,,, because it is for four wheel vehicles, NOT motorcycles
on this list for four wheel vehicles I will highlight other things this trike will not have.
also a street legal motorcycle is not an ATV when converted to a trike, it is still classified as a motorcycle


Agency/ Department Address Telephone Number
PART 2 – ON-ROAD EQUIPMENT INSPECTION BY A POLICE OFFICER
This vehicle has all the necessary on-road equipment as required by the Michigan Vehicle Code.
UNIT A – FOUR-WHEEL MOTOR VEHICLES
LIGHTS
Headlights (one each side, high and low beams)
Turn signals (front and rear)
Taillight (at least one, if equipped with two both
must work)
License plate light
Brake lights.
INTERIOR
Horn
Bright light indicator
Windshield wipers
Windshield washers
Brakes (adequate to stop and hold the vehicle)
Parking brake
Safety belts (1965 and newer models).
WINDSHIELD AND MIRRORS
Safety Glass (no plexiglas, sufficient size to protect
driver and passengers, no cracks, no obstructions,
non-transparent material prohibited)
Outside rearview mirror on driver’s side (adjustable)
Half-ton or more capacity trucks outside rearview
mirrors on both sides.
EXTERIOR
Bumpers (required on passenger vehicles, 14 to 22
inches above the ground except 4-wheel drive)
Tires (2/32 inch tread, no exposed cord or tread
separation, approved for highway use by D.O.T.)
Exhaust (good working order, no excessive noise.
Must include a tailpipe and resonator where the
original design included a tailpipe and resonator)
Differential gear.
Signature and title of police officer making equipment inspection for four-wheel motor vehicle:
__________________________________________________ ___ ________________________
Signature and Title of Police Officer Date
________________________ __________________________________ (_ ___ )__________________
Agency/ Department Address Telephone Number
TR-54 (08/01) Over for Motorcycle and Trailer Equipment Inspection





now if you have the time, post the Michigan motorcycle inspection form

ProtoDie
10-02-2016, 01:16 PM
seriously???
I was joking but I am all about the facts,,,,as long as they are correct.
yes I know this list,,,,, because it is for four wheel vehicles, NOT motorcycles
on this list for four wheel vehicles I will highlight other things this trike will not have.
also a street legal motorcycle is not an ATV when converted to a trike, it is still classified as a motorcycle


Agency/ Department Address Telephone Number
PART 2 – ON-ROAD EQUIPMENT INSPECTION BY A POLICE OFFICER
This vehicle has all the necessary on-road equipment as required by the Michigan Vehicle Code.
UNIT A – FOUR-WHEEL MOTOR VEHICLES
LIGHTS
Headlights ([]one each side,[/SIZE] high and low beams)
Turn signals (front and rear)
Taillight (at least one, if equipped with two both
must work)
License plate light
Brake lights.
INTERIOR
Horn
Bright light indicator
Windshield wipers
Windshield washers
Brakes (adequate to stop and hold the vehicle)
Parking brake
Safety belts (1965 and newer models).
WINDSHIELD AND MIRRORS
Safety Glass (no plexiglas, sufficient size to protect
driver and passengers, no cracks, no obstructions,
non-transparent material prohibited)
Outside rearview mirror on driver’s side (adjustable)
Half-ton or more capacity trucks outside rearview
mirrors on both sides.
EXTERIOR
Bumpers (required on passenger vehicles, 14 to 22
inches above the ground except 4-wheel drive)
Tires (2/32 inch tread, no exposed cord or tread
separation, approved for highway use by D.O.T.)
Exhaust (good working order, no excessive noise.
Must include a tailpipe and resonator where the
original design included a tailpipe and resonator)
Differential gear.
Signature and title of police officer making equipment inspection for four-wheel motor vehicle:
__________________________________________________ ___ ________________________
Signature and Title of Police Officer Date
________________________ __________________________________ (_ ___ )__________________
Agency/ Department Address Telephone Number
TR-54 (08/01) Over for Motorcycle and Trailer Equipment Inspection





now if you have the time, post the Michigan motorcycle inspection form

deaner
10-02-2016, 03:28 PM
You can say that again.

ProtoDie
10-02-2016, 04:37 PM
good one Deaner, I did say it again , LOL
it double posted, don't know why

here is what I found in my research on motorcycle / trike laws,,, boring stuff but want to make sure info shared is correct

Michigan motorcycle law requirements 2016 (http://www.michigan.gov/documents/sos/Motorcycle_Laws_Guide_03.21.2016_525840_7.pdf)

and this article:

Michigan: To get an assemblers title cost $10.00 - $17.50 extra for the assigned VIN and normal title charges. The police safety officer's inspection is free. As long as you adhere to "motorcycles" standards ex. lights, horn, signals and helmet use if applicable, brakes etc. and three weeks before the process is complete you are ok. The use of the cycle VIN is for proof of ownership of the cycle doner only. The TM is not given the same VIN as the cycle in any State. They use the Baja Bug as an example for a vehicle not a cycle there is a big difference ex. 5 mph bumpers, seat belts, crash tests and so on, in California EPA pollution testing standards and some other states as well.

It's not a car in any of the fifty states whether you use the original motorcycle frame or not, the only thing different between states is the use of "laminated" safety glass on the windshield in Maryland and Virginia and you can get around that by wearing a DOT helmet with a DOT shield or eye protection when driving the TM (don't use hatchback glass it's not laminated, it explodes in a million pieces instantly like a side window, a simple rock thrown up by the vehicle in front of you could ruin your whole day and blind you as a bonus if you don't wear eye protection. Getting safety glass cut to fit is done by most auto glass shops but, it's flat and can't be reshaped or curved across the pane only the cuts or edges.)

In Michigan you assign your own Serial number because you are the manufacturer and it must be displayed in plain site from the outside when the trike is static. There is no inspection in Michigan of the "new" vehicle, only questions ex. does it have stop lights, turn signals or access for hand signals? etc. of course the answer must be yes for all. If you put two wheels on the back of a Goldwing (a conversion) there are no changes at the DMV other than description 3 wheels instead of 2. The Tri-Magnum is a complete redesign and the cycle title remains the same so you keep it for your records and proof of ownership.

You can change or upgrade the motorcycle power unit just like a motor in a car. But, you must keep the title for the new cycle for proof of ownership just like a bill of sale for the motor for a car, to prove it wasn't stolen. So anyone who is thinking of buying a "Hot" bike cheap to use as a donor better think again. A police officer can run a check on the VIN of the cycle frame and find out if it's stolen in about 3 to 5 minutes over the radio or in-car computer. If you eliminate the frame they can check the engine number the same way. So, make sure you have a title, salvage certificate, salvage title or if you are using a motor and tube frame the bill of sale for the motor to keep from being charged for receiving stolen property that is universal in all 50 states. Keep a photo copy in the vehicle a cop can verify it in the time stated above. Stay ahead of the officer with all the proofs and your traffic stop will amount to questions like - 'how long did it take to build?', 'does it handle good?', 'did you design it yourself?', etc.


this is from the Federal Gov't site

Three Wheeled Vehicles
On a federal level, three wheel cars do not exist in the U.S. If a light duty vehicle operates with not more than three wheels in contact with the ground, it is classified as a motorcycle. Manufacturers of three-wheelers must therefore equip their vehicles according to motorcycle regulations, and they do not have to meet the safety and emissions standards that apply to passenger cars. Homebuilt three-wheelers are regulated on a state level and must comply with state-level motor vehicle regulations. But state vehicle code normally does not contradict federal regulations.
In brief, three wheelers can use acrylic window glazing (or none at all), they need only a single headlight and tail light module, they are not required to be equipped with wipers, defrosters, vehicle-width bumpers, fenders, seat belts, turn signals, and parking brakes. Motorcycle emissions standards are also less stringent, or not controlled at all. Recent changes have allowed an emissions exemption - a once in a lifetime exemption - for a homebuilt motorcycle. Recently, California had no emissions regulations for diesel-powered motorcycles. Some of the foregoing may not apply equally in all states.
In most cases, vehicle regulations tend to favor the hobbyist. Motor vehicle regulations are not intended to discourage experimentation or pleasure-fabrication by hobbyists. It is generally assumed that hobbyists do not have a significant impact on highway safety or emissions. Before beginning construction of a three wheel vehicle, visit the agency responsible for inspecting and licensing vehicles in your state and pick up a copy of the pamphlet containing equipment requirements for specially constructed three wheelers. The procedure for obtaining a new title should be the same as for four wheel vehicles.

nutz4sand
10-02-2016, 05:36 PM
YES SERIOUSLY. Here reread this last paragraph. Its FROM the Michigan department department of state. Something lawyers WILL USE against you in a court.


ATV cannot be made street legal as they lack the safety equipment necessary. Three- and four-wheel all-terrain vehicles (ATV) cannot be upgraded for on-road use. ATV's are manufactured with a live axle, rather than a differential gear, which seriously affects their handling characteristics when operated on paved surfaces.

Live axles are NOT legal in Michigan. No matter what they are on. Go ahead and ignore it. A good lawyer will not. Ignorance of the law will not protect a violator. No matter what wishful thinking they want to hug onto.

ProtoDie
10-02-2016, 07:51 PM
uggggh, a trike is a motorcycle, not an ATV all terrain vehicle
motorcycle laws apply to them.

I did not ignore anything but heavily researched the laws applying to motorcycles and trike conversions.
then shared the laws and facts according to the state of michigan and the Federal laws pertaining to motorcycles and trikes,,,, which is what this is.

this is a street legal motorcycle,,,,,,,,not a 4 wheel vehicle or an ATV which is what the laws you are sharing apply too

if the laws and specs you posted apply,,,,the lawyers will try for no seat belts,,,no windshield wipers and no bumpers , before they get to whether it has a diff or not


at this point, I do not think we will ever agree on this and need to end the banter
I think the links and facts should speak for themselves, not personal opinions on lawyers and such


this is not a mini buggy, but thought I would share another one of my fabrication projects I am building here on mini buggy

if the thread is going to get cluttered up with this then I will ask admins to delete this thread,,,, I have to much work to do to be arguing online

nutz4sand
10-02-2016, 08:01 PM
Think what you wish. I do not care what you call it.

A diff is required in a drive axle to be LEGAL in ANYTHING on the street. UGGGH it all you wish. If it hits me or mine I will own.

NO live axles. Period. Run any risk you wish. I am right and a lawyer and judge WILL side with me.

ProtoDie
10-02-2016, 08:17 PM
I knew you thought it is bad ass, you keep wanting to find ways to own it [smilie=peace.gif]

65chedderbob
10-02-2016, 08:42 PM
Just a thought, if you two are really dead set in your opinions, then why not ask an official who would know for sure rather than using interpretations of laws online..?

nutz4sand
10-02-2016, 11:34 PM
I have. Its law. Looking at a trike myself. If I get my new place I have plans to build one myself but it will be quite different and for a different purpose.

lol When I said own I was not talking about the trike that hit me (or anything else with a live axle.) I am talking about owning whatever they used too!

I would use the RPM out of it though :]