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Tonico
10-17-2009, 08:42 AM
Hi everybody

I need some feed back on the possibility of starting a DESERT racing series in Southern California.
This would be dedicated to UTVs, Stadium lights type buggies and Motorcycle engined buggies.
At this point everything is up in the air. What I am trying to ascertain is if there is enough interest for such a series. In other words “If I build it, will you come?”

The races would be shorter than the normal off-road races already in place which are really meant for full sized vehicles. I am thinking loops of about 25 miles and race length of about 100 miles possibly 150 miles.

The most likely area would be Barstow but other areas in So. Cal are not out of the question. Probably 5-6 races a year.

Rules would be pretty much standard as used by existing series.

Please let me know just how interested you would be. I would like to know just how many already race in other series and those who may consider entering but still have to prepare a vehicle.
Thoughts, suggestion, opinions, concerns are all welcome

Thank you very much
Tony
mojaveUTV@gmail.com

fl250driver
10-17-2009, 01:36 PM
i would be interested but my fl250 sucks for desert... no rear suspension and like 2 inches(im being generous with 2 inches) of travel in the front....
this being said and also in my price range would be an fl350 or a china buggy that i could put a new engine in and do some upgrades.
would these be legal to race?

Tonico
10-17-2009, 08:27 PM
i would be interested but my fl250 sucks for desert... no rear suspension and like 2 inches(im being generous with 2 inches) of travel in the front....
this being said and also in my price range would be an fl350 or a china buggy that i could put a new engine in and do some upgrades.
would these be legal to race?

For now what I am considering is have the stand Stock and pro/mod classes for UTV's and a sportsman class which would pretty much include just about anything with up to 1000cc. Depending how things turn out than further classes can be created.
With this said if a dozen guys with 'busa powered buggies want to play I would go along with that.
Further I have reservations about the integrity of the China buggies as far as cages go (and a few other things). Currently the rules call for 1.5" x .090 for under 2000lbs vehicles. I may consider 1.25" which is seems to be more common on bike powered buggies or under 1000lbs. After all is is not like a truck or class 1 is going to nail you.
This is part of the reason for the series. You don't have to worry about a much bigger/faster racer turning you into road kill.
One thing I have noticed is that many people will play in the desert all day long, but stay away from the racing trails. I would strongly advise anyone who would like to race to download one of the maps say from MORE
and next time out try going on those trails. I have seen many get on a racing trail and turn around after 100 yrds. One thing is tearing up the camp site or roads that I drive a FWD sedan over another story to try the real thing.
Tony

diirk
10-17-2009, 09:47 PM
I like the general idea. I'm thinking you might want to consider running your series at Cal City. They're very offroad friendly and there isn't much else going on there. Also, i don't know what your experience with something like this is, but you may want to get some help from someone that has done this before. One is Lucho from RDC, he's done a number of Poker Runs around Cal City and another is Jerrod (I think) from Monaghan Motorsports in Tehachapi.

TutTech
10-18-2009, 02:26 AM
I like the idea but you will have to open the tubing rule up to the 1.25 size guys for sure.
As you stated the under 2000 is 1.5 because of the bigger cars that may hit you. As you said
if most of the cars racing are under 2,000 pounds then that rule is not as big of a factor.
Tons of cars race and have been racing with the 1.25 size tubing from Micky Thompson and stadium races to desert racing and have done very well with the 1.25 size tubing for their own size and weight. Change or allow the 1.25 tubing to be used and you will have more people involved. If you make your smaller buggies bigger and safer for desert racing also their weight will increase when you start adding spare tires, tool kits, fuel cells etc. so you may want to allow the 1.25 tubing up to 1,500 pounds or even up to 2,000. Up to you but at least to the 1,500 to allow people to add all the safety gear and not worry about going over weight etc. and still be safe and not cut corners.


I like the idea a lot and think you will need an open motor class also to let some of the ecotech and other type of motored mini buggies run especially any of the turbo guys.
(Just being fast does not make you a winner in offroading. So open class 1 mini buggy class should be set up to allow just about anything in to get your turn out and numbers up. Say anything 4 cylinder for example?)

You will need to allow some modifications or grandfathering in of some buggies for now if you are to make any real numbers and get people to turn out for the event.

As it is now if you just go off say the SCORE rules then you won't have almost any mini buggies and only get the Midisize buggies like X-18's, Fusions, My car Pepper Drives, then they will only show up if you allow automotive motors. UTV's would and should be able to make and pass their own tech so that should not be a big deal.

Anyways I like it and think the smaller loops because of the smaller cars is a great idea.
Do like MORE does and have the limited CC buggies/vehicles run less laps and the modified cars
run more laps. Pretty simple and that way everyone gets to get beat up evenly. ;)
The limited buggies with no wheel travel will be lucky to do 2 laps at 20 miles and still be able to
walk the next day or even drive their buggies again.
The unlimited guys well they should do the full amount... 100 miles on a normal race and maybe have a big race of 200 or something once a year.

Sounds good to me and please post up some more info and if you get some rules or closer rules to what you will allow or let run please post and then I will know if I can make it.
Depending on entry fees, not worried about pay back just keep the entry fees low and a trophy for braggin rights and I am in.
Well if I can pass your rules with my car then ya I would love to do some more racing. Count me in. ;)

Tonico
10-18-2009, 08:25 AM
Hi Tut
Thanks for the words of wisdom.
First and foremost a big thumbs up for Pepper's effort in the PP race even of she at least on one lap did not follow my advice to only use the right lane at the MM4 crossing... Now you probably know who I am... :-)
Actually I started to consider this idea with "mini-buggies" in mind. But considering that UTV's seem to be reproducing like rabbits, I felt that using them as the main stay of the series would make the most sense. Apparently judging by the responses I may be wrong.
As far as rules go I do not believe that the SCORE rules are the definitive way to go. There will be differences. This will be mostly true as far as "mini- buggies".... I have a serious problem with anything with a motorcycle engine other than bikes to be treated like lepers or something.
I think that there is a place for them in desert racing.
You've brought up the possibility of automotive engines, My concern is that some one spends a stupid amount of money on what is essentially a Class 1, parks a turbocharged Ecotec + Mendeola in it and thrashes the whole field. I am trying to figure out how to restrict such a class so that such a combo would not get much of an advantage. Keeping the wheelbase short say like your 3000 and restrict the suspension travel.

As I am writing this an idea popped in my head. The racing season is coming to an end RSN. How about organizing an outing to Barstow of everybody interested who my or may not already have a car and follow say the PP track so those who may not really have a good idea of what is like on a real racing trail. No racing or poker run. As long as there are no fees involved or an actual competition the BLM does not really care? It would be great having Pepper in your car leading the way she already knows the way and after wards we can bench race and maybe settle on what makes sense. I don't have a mini buggy but my play buggy will do. This would be a fun run just to explore the possibilities.
Have a great day
Tony

Tonico
10-18-2009, 08:57 AM
Oh another idea for automotive engines that I have had for a long time, is to use a FWD engine transmission in a mid engined configuration (MR2/Fiero). Allow any fwd trans coupled with any 4 cylinder engine. Scrapyards are full of these that can be had for a song. Allow custom inner stubs to use regular 930 CV's and the rest would probably come right out of Kartek's shelves or someone on a real tight budget use the whole FWD assembly... I suspect that a chassis for a 4-cylinder bike engine would probably allow such an engine/trans to fit even if you have to bring out a large hammer :-)
I realize that the strength of the transmissions is dubious but that has never stopped the Class 9's, it's up to the driver.
Tony

TutTech
10-18-2009, 10:30 AM
Thank you for the kind words and I will let Pepper know. I can meet you at Barstow in 45 minutes and we can run the 20 mile old Powder Puff loop that was used at first that Pepper and I practice on. It works great as it is 20 miles so you can test, time and see what fuel you use etc. It also has some of everything including a hill climb to let everyone see what they are in for. From hard pact dirt, a river bed, sand, rocks, a hill climb, couple fast sections then a bunch of return drops and rollers to bring you back into the start finish with some deep wheel ruts from big 37 inch tall tires digging them for people to see if their cars can even make it through without getting stuck... the stock sedan bugs or 11 class cars and UTV's have learned to drive through this terrain so if people do like you say and come check it out and see what they think I believe it is a great idea.

UTV's are a big group and that can be great to give them a chance to come race in CA. not out in best in the desert and not just on race tracks like Parris etc. but actual desert races. Heck they do really well at the Powder Puff race and set some amazing lap times!

Allowing automotive motors would be the largest buggies like class 1 cars of this event and with them growing and having more and more builders and supporters it would add to the numbers and could help bring sponsors etc. to your events. So I would not rule them out and just find a common ruling for them. 4 cylinders only stock intake. No turbos etc.? Also as mini buggies go wheel base plays a big part on how fast you can run and put your power to the ground so keep the idea of mini buggy and wheel base rules maybe or should be in effect? What makes a Mini buggy mini? Small size right? So a car should not say be bigger than........ or not have a wheel base longer than...... or classes based on wheel travel? I think some rules need to be started soon. For now a run what you brung and just get people to show would be best but start laying down ground rules soon.

The motor is a bit tricky but I am sure everyone could agree or allow them to race this year to get people in and if they have a sure win or something.. even though it is desert racing nothing is for sure and speed does not guarantee a win maybe just allow some stuff 1 year until you get everything worked out.
After that first year then maybe you will have more racers and can maybe have more classes or inform people that they will have to comply with a motor ruling that is voted on by all racers that have raced the season??? Or something like that.
Or if you win 3 first places you have to step up into the next class above your class.. if one is available. If not then work on what to do when/if that happens.

I am very curious about this because I am building a mini buggy... actually I have built several but I am building one for myself so I can make my own front a arms and rear trailing arms etc. and I am building it to be able to race a little.. nothing to crazy maybe at Glen Helen or maybe in next years powder puff. But I was simply going VW engine as I have 3 of them standing by.
So it was a cost and availability issue with me. I have it so I am going to use it. If you allow automotive 4 cylinder engines then I would be able to come and race it with your organization and be able to be a much larger supporter etc. of this new adventure and possibly help bring sponsors etc. to the table. Who knows I may be able to help in other ways as well?
Just an idea... just like class 9 only being able to run stock trannies then maybe restrict the automotive guys to cvts, chain drives or VW trannies.. no mendeolas.. etc? See what people think on that? A cvt will kick some serious butt to though.. but the X-18 guys can come race so that is why I say that. Are they minis? are they small enough? How small is a mini? What size car is to big?

Well keep working on it and yes lets set up a weekend and get everyone together to see what they are in for and what they would be up for. As BLM is held to even more strict land use issues you will have to run on current tracks so they are going to be rough. Very rough. So I think people really need to see what they are in for and we should have a day to meet and greet everyone interested and do a pre run, fun run type deal then sit around with everyone who shows up and discuss rules etc. better.
No fees are needed on off race weekends. You will have to pay land use fees on race weekends and insurance etc. So these things will have to be checked into.

If in a year this realy gets going and we rule on motorcycle only motors I would be able to save up and find a motor and install it into the mini buggy I am building later on, but for now I do not have the money to build the car and buy motorcycle motors/FNR trannies etc. and I want to build my complete car to test and set it up complete with my a arms and rear arms most importantly for now.
But I would be willing to build my mini buggy into a race car instead of a sand car and come race.
;)

Well cool if you need some help let me know and I will try to help you out if I can.
Good luck and you have my support,
Tut.
:)

Oh and I have gone accross that road crossing and in our small car and short wheel base staying to the right is a must.. but she did a driver change heading out on lap 3 and the new co rider did not remind her and she told me she forgot as she hit pretty hard!
Ah oh well it happens.. The car is in perfect shape, she even helped another rolled car and she had a blast and that is all that matters.
;)

diirk
10-18-2009, 11:20 AM
I'm in agreement with Tut. And, if you limit the type of vehicles too much, you won't get a huge turnout. If you allow, say 4 cyl car motors, then that will make a huge difference to your turnout. From a preformance standpoint, motorcycle powered buggies have similar power, so I don't really see an advantage either way. I also like the idea of running something relatively stock, like the sealed motors that SCORE, MORE, SNORE require.

Tonico
10-18-2009, 05:56 PM
You do make a good point on the bike horse power vs automotive engines.
What makes a mini a mini? Well I am thinking 80" wheelbase only because at one point I was considering a Manx style buggy class. I believe that the stadium lites are about 72"? Much longer and you'll have Bajas/vw's at 94".
Tut what wheelbase is your 3000 or the new one that you are building?
One of Rorty's designs is 79".
Tony

Gene
10-18-2009, 06:07 PM
I'm too far away to get involved and think that there are few minis out there under 80". My R82 is 86 and the Sick car I had was 104 and is now 114. El Toro cars are about 90.

Maybe an open class for cars like that with engines larger than 1 liter.

r6eric
10-18-2009, 08:54 PM
hi guys
i got the rorty r6 wheelbase is 79" this would be something im interested in
eric

TutTech
10-19-2009, 09:42 AM
I really like this idea and have wanted to do it myself but I have been just having way to much fun racing to stop and take charge and organize this. So I really appreciate you doing this Tony and I hope you get it up and going.. I will be there one way or another.

Well the class 3000 is 103 inch wheelbase.
With MORE they allow any 4 cylinder stock motor.. no turbos etc. Stock factory motors... because they do not have the minimum turn out of 10 cars in class. MORE says once enough of the actual 3000 cars show up then it will be a strictly ecotec class but for now he has left the class open to VW motors and other 2 liters or smaller. as they are under powered compared to the ecotecs.
This is the thinking I would use... make the 103 inch class 3000 the Largest "Mini Buggies" at the races and these would equal your class 1 big boys.

I would think up enough classes to just get everyone racing and having fun adding classes as it grows and people vote on more classes if needed.


1. Limited class would be mini buggies with motors up to say 500cc under 90 inch wheel base and less than 10 inches of wheel travel. (please correct me or give input.. should it be more like the baja karts? and go even smaller like 250cc?) Let Tony know what you guys want or think.

2. Modified would be from 500cc up to 1000cc and wheel base under 100 inches with over 10 inches wheel travel.

3. Unlimited Class would be over 1000cc and open wheel base, with any amount of wheel travel.

Remember this is just off the top of my head and a way to get everyone racing without making to many classes for now..

4. Class 3000 is already a class and it runs Ecotecs or automotive motors no larger than 4 cylinder 2.4 liters.

5. UTV Class

The classes can be changed and added to like the limited could have rules about suspension also. And we can add a stock class if enough people vote or ask for it?
10 inches or over on wheel travel moves you into modified no matter what engine size??
And same with the other classes? This we can vote on or open up later on.
Also wheel base.. if over 100 inch wheel base then you are in the modified class?

For now 5 classes should get you racing though off the top of my head.
Limited mini buggy, modified mini buggy, unlimited mini buggy, class 30000 and UTV class.

Plus you can set up races to have different miles for different classes. So your not out all day waiting on the smaller guys to finish and they are not just beating themselves and their cars to death.
Class 1 the limited mini buggies would do 2 laps, class 2 does 3 laps, class 3 does 4 laps, class 4 does all the laps of whatever the total mileage is and UTV's to be decided?
That is how most organizations do it.

These are just ideas and things that I have thought about if I ever started this... plus from racing I think this would work out well. It may not be perfect but until you get 10 cars in a class that class will stay what it is until 10 people vote to change it or open their own class for say their own turbo hyabusa class for example? Then you would have a 7th class for them. Hope that made since?
You don't have to include the class 3000 cars but it is a good place to put automotive cars and bigger size cars into? Gets people to show up and race and then opens the doors to all their sponsors then it is worth it right? If they Nerf or cause trouble for the smaller cars then out they go right?

Also I think you need to talk to the BLM right away if you want to ask for permission to race on BLM lands for next year. You are supposed to submit what weekends you want to race and what course you want to use? How many miles etc. The lower the miles the easier it is to get permission. For mini buggies etc. the lower miles would be better at first so we can help with pitting and support at first. Bigger races and loops later on.

I would stick with Barstow for now as most people can make it there and it is not to far for a one day event... tech in morning at say 8am race starts at 9am or as soon as tech is over. Race lasts for x amount of time and you do whatever miles that race is with each class doing the number of loops they are supposed to do in that time frame.
After the race you do a small awards deal for the racers and then people can head home all done in a single day and so they can keep the cost down. Later as the racing gets bigger you can stay longer make a weekend out of it etc. People can still stay of course and keep on playing etc. and make a weekend out of it if they want. Also their is hotels, food, gas stations, autoparts and almost everything else close by. Other places don't have almost any of this stuff.. like Lucerne or Ridgecrest... which is even worse.. dang.

Also check to see what dates MORE and MDR already have because if you pick the weekend before, during or after one of their races you will be denied. They mark the track the weekend before for pre running, race the next weekend and clean up the weekend after.
So you have to find out how to fit within them or what not.

You need to get a permit I believe from Barstow also? Insurance with a bond? Pretty sure.
And collect land use fees for each car entered in the race for the BLM is how they used to do it. Race cars are not supposed to have to have green stickers if on the track during a race weekend because you pay a land use fee for racing as we tear up the desert more than an average person so we have to pay more. :(

Anyways just some things off the top of my head I have heard to think about if you did not already know? Try to find out all the red tape stuff as soon as you can. Also if we don't have over a certain amount of people we can hold our own race without BLM permission as we are just friends gathering and riding. Until it grows this may work? Not sure on the amount of people that is.


My car is now Peppers car by the way and it is built for class 3000. We run it in sportsman just for the fun of it and it is cheaper both on entry cost and not having to install an ecotec and repairs after the race etc..
Well she told me she is keeping our car she calls Kitt and I have to build my own car so I have been working on ideas for about a year now on a mini buggy I am building with 1.25 tubing and smaller everything for playing with at the desert and going to Glamis, Dumont, Pismo etc.
It will be much smaller than a 3000 car and have about a 90 maybe 95 inch wheel base or so I was planning. Especially using the VW motor and tranny it will be a bit longer than what I could build it as with a motorcycle engine. It could come in at an 80" wheel base but only with a bike motor.
But at least this gets me out there in my own mini buggy and finally playing and driving again. [smilie=jumping.gif]
I am going to set it up as a dual sport mini buggy.. should be one of the sort of first ones.. with a full desert look to it and be able to run some automotive size tires without rubing etc just for going to the desert. I was going to do a light bar, window nets and a spare tire.. so why not go all the way and add the fuel cell, full body with fire walls, radio etc. and be able to come race it with you.
It will be much lighter duty then a class 3000 and not nearly able to hit the speeds the other guys do but should be a blast!

Talk to me more about this and if I can help let me know.. heck maybe I can help with some sponsorship like say offer my Pit service and my crew to pit and help everyone who shows up to the first race. This includes changing tires to welding your cars if you need.
Full set of tools and crew at your disposal to help those who come out to the first race.
;)

As this goes along maybe I can help more and in other ways. Hope all this helps you in some way Tony.. or not you don't have to use any of this or use only the parts you like.

Well as you can tell I like it! [smilie=ecstatic.gi:
When do we race... :D

Eric I would love to meet up with you and do some racing.. sweet!
Plus I know Diirk would be in for the class 3000 and I would let my wife race her class 3000
and I would run my mini buggy.
That is already 4 cars right there..

Pepper
10-19-2009, 12:17 PM
Ha ha ha...as much as I say I want Kitt to be MINE...she is still ours [smilie=alright.gif] Dont worry, you will be taking over some of the driving duties again until you get your car going...:cool: We just need to keep her going and out there for everyone to see...and now I have a few co-riders!! whoo hooo

Pepper
10-19-2009, 12:28 PM
oh yeah...Tony...Yes I did oops on the road crossing...ha ha ha...i had a new co-driver and was distracted and forgot to go to the right...:eek: I got busted a few races ago actually smiling and waving at a photographer, which is not too bad if I am co-driver but I WAS DRIVING....:rolleyes: So i have learned to not look at people and just focus on whats in front of me and Kitt...the ROAD!...[smilie=rofl.gif] Kitt still took it pretty well...and we did have a ton of fun! Wish I could put a face to a name..

84BOB
10-19-2009, 04:27 PM
We've been trying to get a mini class going at Glen Helen this year and managed to get 8 cars out there last race,me excluded,had to work.It would be great to have a place to race the old stadium cars and the Redlines.I don't know about any of the smaller china buggies(tech).The old stadium cars were 400cc's and less with a few cheater motors up to 490cc's.So 500 or less for that class should work and maybe the cars would show up.I know that mine would.Please keep in mind that "saftey first" is the only way to go.

r6eric
10-19-2009, 09:34 PM
hi guys
this would be fun just need to know what safety items i would need. if u guys meet out at barstow outlets let me know. my son and i went out and set my shocks up out there on the course tut and pepper ran on rough course but loved it.also went out to johnson valley and ran course b nice course also. thanks eric

Tonico
10-20-2009, 07:35 AM
All great ideas. Let me think about some of this. My major concern is to have vehicles which are too disparate in size and weight on the track at the same time. BUT if it comes to push and shove (no pun intended) I could set it up as two seperate races just like the PP. One for the UTVs/Limited buggies/Lites,etc and the other for 3000/unlimited buggies/unlimited UTV's (eg SR1).
As far as the details yes I am aware of all that stuff, I still have to get details. Actually I have the form and requirements from BLM.
As far as dates, I definately do not want conflicts with other organizations. The last thing I need in my life is P'ing contests or politics....
I have noticed that races usually never seem to fall on long week ends. I also read all the time how people can't make it because of work. Obviously Christmas day and probably Thanks Giving. What about Sundays?
In the mean time I would like to read opinions from more people.
Tony

Tonico
10-20-2009, 07:43 AM
R6eric,
I would say for starters race suit and race helmet. As far as the car it self race belts, nets, fire extinguisher, first aid kit, maybe a bottle of water per occupant. It's not like these are going to 1000 mile races where someone could be out there for hours alone doing a bat impersonation...
The fuel cell is up in the air but a good idea regardless.
Tony

Tonico
10-20-2009, 07:54 AM
Pepper
I approached you at contengency. I have a white beard and where this oversized hat. You were in Kitt I think in from of the Demzl spot. I could see in your eys that you where already out there, so you may not remember me when I said use the right lane.
You could have done worse... a lot worse. #5 approached on the left side way too fast. Braked super hard almost bottoming all four corners, than went OUTSIDE the yellow flag BETWEEN the two flag guys (I was on the the other side with my eyes closed).
Have a good one
Tony

TutTech
10-20-2009, 10:54 AM
Sundays are tough for a lot of us as we need to use that day to travel back home, unload, unpack etc. and either get ready or go back to work.
I myself work Sundays through Fridays with Saturday off. I work it out with work
for a race etc. so just let us know. But Saturdays are usually best.

As for the rules cool glad your already looking into it that makes me happy to know
your already that far ahead of us. ;)
Like I said wonder what the BLM considers and organized event?
At first maybe we can all just meet up? Later make it an official organization when you need to or when you want to? I will leave all that up to you. :)


I really think you could run the same cars including the unlimited minis and class 3000 etc. at the same time but simply have a no nerfing rule. If a buggy will not move etc. report them. At Barstow there are tons of areas to pass and the course has become 50 feet wide in some sections. Plus 3 lanes to choose from in others. I do not see a problem. No Nerfing! You have cars built with small size materials etc. and so should not be hit anyways.. plus it is a huge safety factor when two cars come in contact with one another.
Plus if the limited guys do only a lap or two they will only get passed once or maybe twice by the few faster cars. I don't see a ton of troubles.. if it becomes one then close it to the minis only. Then you can say I tried it and it did not work.. or hold two events.


Also on the nerfing if several people report someone for not moving when you honk etc. then you can talk to them if it becomes a big deal. Some of the smaller cars may be to mini to pull over into large rocks or bushes so I think it may be safer for them to stay on course and have the larger or faster car pass them. So nerfing is probably not a good idea all the way around? If you bump or slide into or have an accident in the dust etc. or in a corner.. then that is racing and if people report someone for constantly doing it then you can again take care of it. Including or up to banning them.
:(

Besides I can picture some people bringing some pretty nice mini buggies out from the sand etc. and may not race because they wont want to get hit.
UTV's run a blue light and have a no nerfing rule so I say everyone should abide by it.
Safer, easier and I think you will have more fun if people are not worried about it.
The courses have plenty of room to pass with a foot ball field everytime.
So that is not to long to wait for safety and respect for the others racing.

I would also like to see if others think or agree to this.

Oh and what about trophies only for all classes. Keeps it simple and you can just go have fun and keep the entry fees down. Cheaper will get more entrys.
If you want to bet let the racers put side bets on the race and maybe you can hold the money and pay the winner or something.
But I would do trophies only especially at first.
What do people think about that?


Safety is first I agree..
I would not mind writing up some simple safety guidelines that maybe used to tech a car with? If you want? Or if your doing it cool.


Eric I would love to meet up with you as I have said in the past.
The Powder puffs old course is a great adventure for everyone to race on.
It really can not be beat for what all you will drive through in a single lap it has it all.

I would enjoy meeting up and running a loop or two with anyone and showing them the course at anytime to see if they are interested in trying this as a sport.

I will set up another post and ask people to please post and give input if they are intrested in desert racing.
;)

As you can tell I am all for it and again please let me know what I can do to help.
:)

84BOB
10-20-2009, 11:57 AM
Tut,All good ideas,trophies first to get things up and running is a good idea.Saturday races are better than Sunday.Barstow sounds good but lets not count Cal City out,ran there years ago and it was always fun.It would be good to get all the people that can come together for a little talking and a look see at Barstow some day.The no nerf rule is good and so is the blue light as long as you can get the drivers to respect it in the heat of the race.

Damien
10-20-2009, 12:07 PM
I didnt get to read all the posts but count me in. I will definitely want to race my mini buggy in the Ca. desert. I'd want it low key and on the cheaper side, and perhaps not on the enormous whooped out courses that the large cars run on. whoops are cool but 4 ft. whoop are not so fun in a mini. My buggy is a single seat cbr 929 powered, 107"wb and 1.5"x.090 chassis. I'd be fine with running in some sort of unlimited class although the busas would probably be a lot faster.

diirk
10-20-2009, 12:34 PM
I'm good with the no-nerfing rule, thought sometimes the temptation is soooo strong!!!!

As to what BLM considers an event...pretty much anything where money changes hands. If you charge a fee, then they want their cut.

N8ball
10-20-2009, 01:16 PM
I do not have a car built yet, but when I do this is exactly what I will be looking for. I will likely only need a couple races a year, but who knows.

Tonico
10-20-2009, 06:10 PM
Saturdays it is. What about Saturdays during a long week end?
Here's what BLM has to say:
SRP: Special Recreation Permit

"In general, a SRP may be needed from the BLM if any one of the following items is true:
*
A fee is going to be charged.
*
The permittee will make money on the event.
*
There will be competition.
*
There will be advertising.
*
There will be a marked course.
*
There will be vehicles at the event.
*
The event will involve public lands.

Technically even our "expedition" would need one, but lets get real...

Tut thanks for posting on the other section.

This Saturday there is an event up at Cal. City which is supposed to include minis and UTV's. I am planning to go there and take a look around.
I will definitely consider other areas which maybe not be so rough. Maybe I can convince the Barstow BLM to allow a small loop of say 10-15 miles which uses more virgin land. Between the mountains and Hodge Rd?? It is just that the Barstow area is convenient and I remember once taking some friends out there for a day whose wives where very iffy until I told them that there were toilets out there... :-)
Tut the old PP course that you are referring to was it the 2007? I think that it is still online on the MORE site under archives?
Tony

r6eric
10-20-2009, 09:44 PM
been installing fire extinguisher,new seat belts,tool kit,need first aid kit,waters no promblem,need to install window nets and ill be good to go

tut i would love to meet u with u do some races dont even mind if u drive the rorty r6 and tell me what u think of it.let me know when and ahere and ill be there i live in riverside

also is there a age limit for racing trying to get my wife in it i could build her a tube framed rhino and could my 14 year old son ride with her if he cant no problem. like i said would love my wife to race in the powder puff as i just lost a best friend i worked with to liver cancer.

also just for humour dont drink to much water before going out on the barstow track lol

also agree with tut about bumping or nerfing as i say a truck nail a vw and about rip the back off and thecouple who was in the vw quit the race.

also sat would be best for me.

Tonico
10-21-2009, 07:01 AM
I would say that minimum age for co-driver would be 14 and to drive 16.

Here's a quote from Art (the tech guy) about rules for UTV's for the Powder Puff race:
1. 5 point safety harnesses with double D rings, not older then 3 years from manifacture date. NO Y OR V TYPE SHOULDER HARNESSES, NO TWIST LATCH.
2. Nets, covering all window area, bolted on top or cliped.
3. 3 inch brake lights, 3 inch AMBER light connected to igntion switch. AMBER LIGHT MUST stay on entrie race!
4 Fire Extinguishers, minimum one (1) two and half (2 1/2)pound hand held extinguisher. On board is an option and is highly recommend.
5. First Aid Kit
6. Fuel Cells, a must. You are racing now. This is a serious event! A non vented cap, vent hose going beond each side of the fuel cell and down below the cell is required.
***I will probably loosed this one a bit for STOCK UTV's***
7. Numbers, this has been a on going night mare....simple Black triangle white 1 inch stroke numbers...White triangle Black 1 inch stroke numbers....they must be in the front 4 inches or larger, side must be 8 inches or larger, Back number must be 6 inches or larger.
9.Helmets, M2000 and M2005 must be in perfect shape...no dings or dents. A Snell SA2000 and Snell SA2005 is what we would like to see.
10. Driving suits, MUST be SFI approved, look for the tag on the shoulder! Single piece made of NOMEX OR PROBAN MATERIAL. NOMEX underwear is always recommend.
11.Battery, in a marine safety box if its in your drivers area. Cover POSITIVE post and side of battery.
12 Horns, loud!
13, Mirrors a side or inside mirror will be OK.

TutTech
10-21-2009, 10:17 AM
Those rules look perfect to me!

Ok and wow thanks for posting the blm info I did not know all that. sheesh as Diirk says they want their cut don't they.. dang. But heck it all goes to keep the desert open so it is all good.

I don't know if they will open new lands but I know you can use any portions of course A, B or C.
So you can jump around and get a pretty fast course one race etc.. but then the one with the bigger motor wins.. he he. Rough for a short time is fine. People will be ok with it especially if you just have the smaller guys do less miles.

Yes the 2007 PP is perfect.
Also I can do a shorter loop for you using that map maybe even as small as 12 or 13 miles?
I can go drive it and see but I can remove the very rough hill climb for example and save that for
a long event. I can remove the whooped out rough section at the base of the hill at like mile 4 I think on that map.. been a couple years... but I can keep you in the river bed so much smoother and faster.. but softer. Also I can turn you at Slash X restaurant and bring you back sooner and accross the valley floor which only has a few rollers and a couple wash outs.. then a fast back up hill and then a cross over to the other course not on the map to allow you to not do the rough section at the base of the mountain on like mile 16 or so. But this is right by a road crossing where someone could get picked up or towed out if they are broken down.. so you may want to leave this rough section in.
Anyways when I am out there I can move you around easily to do whatever you want or as long or rough or not rough as you think you want?
I think the 20 mile loop is a great starting point and as I said I can shave some really rough stuff that may brake your cars and make the course like 17 or 18 easy and more off of that too if we want.

We can go out almost any weekend just call me or pm etc and set it up and we can go look at what ever you guys think is best. We don't want it being to easy where fast cars just fly around and win.
It is the desert after all... and heck women have no problems doing this course. :D

Any of you guys, or all of you, Eric, Tony etc. and anyone wanting to go see what your in for can meet me out there and I can show you the courses and let you try them out. Then you decide. Plus I will be there if you should get into any troubles.
Also to just meet up and work stuff out we can set up a meet and greet maybe? Bring toys and test the course and see what people think and discuss this more?

Serious let me know I am only 45 minutes away from Outlet Centers and would be willing to meet people on almost any weekend out there to try it out and set up your cars etc.
Just let me know. ;)
I would like to help make this happen in some way and be a supporter of this.

I agree also not every race has to be Barstow I am just mostly talking about the first one and getting it up and going. Barstow is good for several races because of the location not being to far and all the food, hotels, autoparts, gas stations etc. close by. They also have restrooms etc. Plus tons of stores and what not for camping made much easier.
But yes race wherever and we will be there.



Also Like I said before I will provide my complete pit crew and support to all who show up to the first race as a unoffical sponsor/supporter of this great event!
This includes fueling your cars if you need it or any other help some of you may not have as single seaters or whatever. If you don't have people to support you don't worry I do and will bring a complete pit crew with generator, welder, grinders tools of all kinds and you can set up for spare tires to be changed or fuel to be put into your car!!
Now how is that for an offer!
Sheesh all you have to do is show up and drive your own car/utv in a race...
Wow can't get much better than that.
;):D

Well cool Tonico this is great you really have my wife and I talking about doing some racing.. she drives our Kitt so I will build the mini and drive it. Perfect if you do this I get to race again. [smilie=ecstatic.gi:

I have hazmat training this Saturday morning half day and then I am meeting family etc. and going to Karteks Open House or I would go and see this race in Ca. City. Dang. :(
Please tell us more and what you think. Maybe pass out info or a simple link etc. to here for more people to get involved and come race. Plus find out about us racing there in the future? What do you think, food, lodging, etc. travel time etc. camping you know.

I am not against most long weekends and heck Pepper and I woke up on Christmas and it was 80+ degrees so we packed the car and took off to Glamis last year. So we are up for most holidays. Some just never seem to work out. Thanksgiving we all go to Glamis and New years we go to Dumont. So it is just unknown until you try it. Others may work as then some people who need to travel can have the time off to come and race. So I am mostly up for it. Not sure if a holiday will effect the amount of people already using the desert and thus causing traffic and what not already in the desert on the course why we are racing? I remember one year at Lucernce on Memorial weekend the BLM shut down the entire dry lake bed and we had to turn before the rock pile and not even use like 7 miles of the course! So that may be something to just keep in mind.

Have you given any more thought to the classes? Or what you will allow or what not?
I posted just some ideas but what do you all think. Looks like we all agree on the no nerfing so far.
Also what do you think the cost to race will be? I think this will be very important in case we can
not afford to race both MORE and with you for example we will have do decide. But if no pay back and it is cost effective we can race both or if we can not and we have to decide then the lower priced of the two is where we would race. So pricing will make a big difference.
Any ideas or have you asked any sponsors to get involved?

Well cool I hope this works out and Pepper and I look forward to it.
Let me know what I can do to help?
:)

TutTech
10-21-2009, 12:24 PM
Ok went and took a look at the map and here is what you can do.
At RM2 you can go across to RM4 it will only shave a little distance but cut out all the large whoops and nasty rocks along the bottom of the hill with the large wash outs and ruts.

You can then go from RM7 straight across the valley floor to RM11 shaving about 3 miles here and taking out the very large, rough, rocky and steep hill climb. Instead giving you wide open run accross a valley floor with some wash out and some whoops in a lot of it but nothing to bad or as bad as that hill climb.

Then at RM13 and about a half you can go to RM20 this cutting off 4 miles.
This section has both rough, rocky, silty, hilly step ups, wash bed with baby head rocks, smaller hills but hills, wash outs and ruts. Instead you have rollers but more straight and a lot of passing and areas to choose to run through with mostly rollers and of course rocks it is Barstow. Then the home stretch with its deep wagon ruts from the unlimited cars that race there and back through start finish.

So that looks like a good 13 mile course that the mini buggies could handle and not get to beat up on but still have a challenge as it is Barstow and it is always a challenge and adventure.

I can do this for Lucerne for you too.
And for other courses at Barstow if when you need.
I don't know Cal. City but willing to find out and Ridgecrest is bad.. sorry it just is not going to be a place to race for most people. :(

Ok well cool I look forward to more on this and again if anyone ever wants to meet up let me know.
:)

Maps for past races at MORE can be found here.
http://moreracing.net/07/07results.htm

The Powder Puff for 2007 is the race I was talking to where you can make a smaller 13 mile race or around 15 mile race and then just do laps for each class up to the amount you want them all to race.
It has a couple good roads to get in to help out if you have pit crews or chase crews etc.

Tonico
10-21-2009, 08:35 PM
WOW!! You know the area better than the back of your hand...
Dang indeed. I was also planning to go to the Kartek thing. Oh well.
I also have generator, small mig, etc. So for those who may be worried about support out there we can surely help.
As far as classes go basically I am thinking
UTV - Based on the UTV Racing Association rules
SUPER STOCK-- Allow stock tanks
MOD Pro , MOD Am -
Open Outlaw - Motorcycle engines up 1200cc, extended wheelbase within some limit. Sort of a "Trophy UTV"

Mini buggies:

STADIUM LITES -- Adopt standard rules
MINI BUGGIES - 80" wheelbase up to 600cc. 1 1/4" cage, less than 1500lbs
SUPER MINIS - 110" wheel base, open motorcycle engine, probably 1 1/2" cage
3000 - 110" Wheelbase, up to 2.4l automotive engine, stock. I wonder if restricting to trailing arm suspension makes sense. Transmission must be from a production vehicle.... I wonder if someone will build a front engined
3000 buggy??? Mini Truggy?? I can see someone taking an old Toyota pick up and use the whole drive train with a seriously set back engine. Sort like a scaled down version of what Mickey Tompson used to race (Is my age telling?)
way back when.

One of the reasons I want to go to Cal City is that they support China buggies. I will be honest, I cringe at some of them with stuff like single shear mounts for coil overs, but we shall see.
They also support Trophy Karts. Why should the kids have all the fun???

Tony

TutTech
10-22-2009, 09:33 AM
Well looking at what you have so far looks great.
Good start on classes and rules.

I am just wondering I am building a mini buggy with 1 1/4 tubing around the 90 inch is what I was thinking but may go a little more.. and mine will have a VW engine but it will be my test car and so the VW is what I own. I am building the buggy so I can work out and test my own front a arms and rear trailing arms so I can make them and build my mini buggies ready to go for sale and a arms and rear arms available for them. Then a person can just install their own motorcycle engine and there done.
These could be set up for racing in both of your classes easily but I just happen to have all the VW stuff for free... so hmmm... the frames would normally be for motorcycles.
But I would like to be able to bring it to your races and run it for the sure fun factor...
But also to test my parts and what better way to test your work then to go put 100 miles or so on them in the open desert?
I hope I can fit in somewhere and run it with you?

It will be smaller like your mini buggy info you posted.
I am building it to weigh less than 1,500 pounds with 1 1/4 tubing but I will be running a 1600cc VW engine and tranny. Do to my motor will I be able to race? Maybe I could run it in the Super Minis.. if no one minds? Also it will have the 1 1/4 cage and weigh in under 1,500 so I hope that works?
:confused: Let me know.. If not I will see what I can do.. but probably not much. Watch Pepper race Kitt in the 3000 class I suppose. ;)

Well either way cool and glad to see your working out the details looks good to me and I can not wait to see what comes of this. I am so excited. [smilie=ecstatic.gi:
As you can tell. I looked at the other post and over 130 people have read and looked at it.
Very cool and a ton of guys I know I have not even told but will at the next MORE race and see
what they say. This is very cool and I wish the best for it as I really would like to get involved in it
and be able to race with you.

As for the Truggy idea.. it is already being done.. ha ha. ;)

Oh also I talked to one of my friends and supporters Paul who we buy our lights from>
His company is called TrailGlow and he said he would love to talk to you and get onboard with this.
Paul said he could put together a package of pre set up stickered number panels. Pre cut panels in either white or black and a bunch of numbers so we can number cars or set up people with their
number plates etc. He would make a bunch and do a cheap deal for everyone.

Also Paul said if you do the smaller loops he would love to see about doing a night race or two where we come out more in summer time and race into the night. Now the cool part is Paul will make the course markers for each mile fully lighted! They will be lighted up so you can see them and help find your way with each mile of the race!
He is the guy who does the lighted number panels on the side of our car and others at the races already. Plus our lighted pit sign board and stickers of our sponsors he did. Anyways he would like to talk more about this and see if he can help out also. He can be contacted or let me know and he can make your logos or racing name stickers for all the buggies out there and we can put them on your buggies at the race.

Well cool.
So Tonico what are you going to call your orgainization?
Have any idea on pricing yet for entry fee? When do you think the first race might take place?
Begining, middle or end of next year.. or farther out?

Well have fun this weekend with the Cal City let us know all about it.
Keep us updated and talk to you later.

;)

Oh p.s. if this is for buggies then yes you may want to say trailing arm or a arm rear design on class 3000 no truck rear ends.. this is a buggy class?
Up to you. A lot of the trucks run as buggies and remove their truck bodies. They are 111 inches wheel base.
The buggies are only 103 inch wheel base.
So if you just put 103 inch wheel base vehicles only you can just leave it at that and don't have to restrict the rear ends or trailing arms.. they all just must be 103 inches or less to run in the 3000 or you can call it the Buggy Lite class or something.
;)

Pepper
10-22-2009, 09:44 AM
TONY!!! omg yes...I remember you now...Yeah the Powder Puff is so hard to stay focused...There is so much excitement and ladies who want to talk and hang out...
I remember you at contingency. I dont remember seeing you on the track though but like I said...Got busted for checking out spectators and people on track...:p
I think this is all a great idea you guys are doing....I am on board and will help with anything I can. I know Tut is super excited and would love to see this take off. [smilie=ecstatic.gi: If you need anything please let me, us know what we can do to help. The next time I see you Tony, I promise to be more "there" ;)

Tonico
10-22-2009, 07:35 PM
Tut,
I tell you what, I have this Kawasaki KZ1000P (Police model)Engine collecting dust. The bike it came out off had a "mishap" and had 15,000 miles on it.
You can borrow it if you like. I understand that being air cooled it is not the ideal choice but the price is right. Currently I have it rigged so that I could start it in the bench. I have already removed ll the excess wiring. There you are about 90hp ready to go. I was considering using an electric fan to cool it maybe even if necessary make a fiberglass shroud to help with the cooling. Also make a new header to bring the pipes over the top of the head or to the side to keep the exhaust heat away from the engine. Wrapping the primary pipes should also help. If it blows it blows... Right now it is in "Paper weight Mode" :-)
As far as the name goes I was thinking something along the lines of
Mojave Racing Minis
Desert Racing Minis

Before I start talking about how much for entries I have to get a good idea about costs. I would like to keep it under $200 but it all depends on Insurance and what BLM wants. If a series sponsor could be found to pay for that,it would be great. Bottom line I am trying to promote a series not be it's sponsor.
I am currently working part time at charity place that gives out food to yhe needy. Right behind the location is the KTM racing team.... Must be nice, two gigantic semi's to support a hand full of bikes not to mention the "smaller" box trucks. I spend my breaks just starring and drooling... By now they must think that I am some kind of a weirdo.
I do have access to a server for a WEB site for free. I also need to get going on that, even if it is just to attract attention.
You know I can "tweak" the rules anyway I want.
This is why I would really like too hear from other parties. If more people don't say a thing I may have to call it "T&T Racing Series"... You can guess what the two "T's" would stand for...
I would think It would be at least until the middle of the year for the Inaugural. The BLM wants the application to be 180 days before the actual event date.
Tony

elmariachi
10-22-2009, 09:07 PM
Post up on www.utvunderground.com and www.rhinoforums.net to get more interest. The two sites deal a lot with side x side racing. Also, check out www.racechinalites.com/ . They do desert racing of the China Buggies but it takes place in Arizona.

Get something going and I might have to finally finish my rhino :)

Tonico
10-23-2009, 07:03 AM
Just posted on those sites.
Two area of concern as far as UTVs go. Gas tanks and roll overs and the door area.
I am worried about a roll over and gas not be contained and/or the gas line from the tank be ruptured or come off. Does anybody know if the stock system deals with this?
As far as the doors go. I don't know if anybody is doing this but I can see a business from producing a reasonably priced kit that installs fairly easily a tubular structure in order to enclose the area + nets.
If anybody was monitoring the MORE Relay at the PP right at the end of the second race a call went out that a spectator had rolled his UTV down a hill.
Broken arm. I can't believe that the manufacturers are not being sued left right and center over this.
Tony

diirk
10-23-2009, 08:58 AM
In my mind, this is another reason to talk to Cal City. No BLM. Probably still need event insurance, which is a PITA. But it depends on what Cal City requires.

UTV's, like a Rhino don't really handle roll overs well. A fuel cell is a good idea, but will eliminate a lot of stock vehicles.

There are a ton of doors on the market. For racing, most require them to be welded in, so they can't open in a roll over.

TutTech
10-23-2009, 09:17 AM
OMG! We saw that little rhino roll! Crazy.. and actually Tonico there is a class action law suit over this. But the manufacturer built these for farming and people using them outside of suggested usage or something is going on.. a UTV owner could probably tell you more and you can also go get free doors for your rhino as yamaha is giving them away free to people who bought rhinos.. also the new ones come with little half doors.

As for doors and nets my sheet metal guy does the doors and I can mark out and order nets.
I have done it for my 2 brothers and 3 buddies.
It is pretty simple and looks good.

I will ask my brothers/buddies about the fuel deal and I can read through the stock rules for BITD and see what they say about the stock tank.. some racing says as long as it is stock and not modified in any way it can be used? So maybe it is safe?

As for entry fee see what you can do to keep it as low as possible as you know MORE charges 200 for their starting entry fee but over at Glen Helen they have mini buggy racing starting at only like 65 bucks. Need to check with some of the guys who race there.. maybe I will pm some of them and see if that is the final price etc. and how they do that?
BLM land use fee used to be 45.00 a car, insurance is whatever you can get and then some fees for you setting up the course, organizing it, pulling permits, paperwork, signs, marking the course, cleaning the course.. etc.

As for sponsors maybe talk to some of the bigger buggy builders of mini buggies.. ha ha that sounds funny.. but maybe talk to King? Kind Sand Cars for example and see if they want to help. Speak to buggy shops? I can ask and see if I can get a Kartek Sponsorship of some type from them?
Maybe some money to help pay fees so it costs less to race or maybe even a donation for stuff, or a prize or gift cards?
Never hurts to ask right? I know the owners pretty good so don't mind at least asking but I would not get my hopes to high tons of people owe them a lot and buggy sells are way down do to economy.
But I will ask tomorrow actually at the Kartek Open House. ;)

OH and OMG! Wow thank you so much for the offer to use your motor! :eek::eek: Wow I can
not believe that. I don't know what to say but thank you. I will talk to you more about this
and send you a message and see what we can work out.. Wow.. thanks again so cool I can
not believe you would do that. [smilie=thumbs_up.g:[smilie=thumbs_up.g:

Either of your names sound good and I like either so far.. good names.. now make up a logo and
set up the website at least for veiwing and attention so people can contact you etc.
Make up a logo and or sticker.. I can talk to TrailGlow about making me decals and I can put them on my stuff to get you attention?

Go talk to KTM and see if they want to get involved, have them drop a motor off with me and I will build it into my mini and run KTM on it.
;):D
No Seriously.. :)

Well cool I think you just need to keep getting the word out.. plus I have not even seen the guys who race their minis at Glen Helen post yet so they have not seen this post. I will try PMing some of them.

Well keep working on this and if you have to do 180 days out better submit that soon or we won't even be able to race next year. Dang... that is some serious wait time. :(

But that is ok gives me time to build my car and actualy keep this one. ;)

Keep us posted oh and also post over on RaceDezert. Tons of guys read that site.

Also at the Toys for Tots you have to stop by in person at our pits and say hi.
Hang out with us and I think a couple other guys from the site might be there.
We can talk and kick some ideas around in person. If you want or can find us please
and stop by. Thanks.

diirk
10-23-2009, 10:12 AM
Maybe KTM would be interested in supplying a motor for a mini....like an 1150cc v-twin....

BITD uses the same rules that the UTV racing accociation use, which requires a fuel cell, outside of the drivers compartment. Currently, most fuel tanks are under the passenger seat...

Tonico
10-23-2009, 04:43 PM
Under the seat??? Geez I really don't feel too good about that. I just did a quick Google and a JAZ fuel cell is not that expensive. I have one for my Class 9 project and it wasn't all that expensive. I don't see too much of am expense to install one in the bed of a UTV. The Jazz fuel cells are fairly commonly used even if they are not a true fuel cell with a bladder. What they do is use their Seamless cross-linked polyethylene outer shell tanks which they also call fuel cells and enclose it in a metal box.
UTVs should be OK with a 8gl one.

Even their polyethylene cells would work as they are already set up with a non vented cap, the pickup outlet is on top (must have a fuel pump for this to work) and have a vent that can be fitted with their tip over valve or have a hose that wraps around the tank. Now the guys with EFI maybe a little more difficult.

..:: JAZ PRODUCTS ::.. (http://www.jazproducts.com/auto_fuel_cells.html)

Pro Sport Cells (http://www.goodvibesracing.com/Pro_%20Sport_Cells.htm)
Tony

Tonico
10-23-2009, 05:02 PM
Where did he roll? On the hills in front of the pits? I guess if you want to put on a show that is the place to do it...
I enjoy everything about the desert except the idiots. I usually go the day before and camp out at the crossing I am working. The action does not stop until 3am or so. This last time I wake up at 2am or so, I can hear someone just hauling (remember I was at MM4) than two or three really loud crashes and silence. I was sure that someone had endoed. Half way out of the sleeping bag I hear the engine start and just go away.... Someone lucked out.
Mind you some racers can be very bone headed too. Friday night a car that shall remain unnamed stops near us, followed by a buggy. First thing we hear is someone say "where are the flash lights?"... Silence than "Crap we forgot the flash light" followed by my wife flooding them with our large Mag and a few seconds later I fire up the generator and flood them with 1000 Watts of light!! They were so happy!!! Besides a few bits and pieces that I just happen to have laying around... They were on their way... Go out at night in the desert without a flash light???
Do you know that I regularly give maps to chase crews who have no clue where they are???
Well all part of the fun, BTW did you guys stay over for the barbecue? It got wild.... :-)
Tony

turbotexas
10-23-2009, 10:31 PM
I would be very interested in racing this series with a Honda Ody or Pilot!
It might increase turnout if you include the ATV's and bikes also...

Tonico
10-24-2009, 06:39 AM
I would be very interested in racing this series with a Honda Ody or Pilot!
It might increase turnout if you include the ATV's and bikes also...

I have considered this. In the other hand I do not want to mix bikes/quads
on a such short track with fully caged vehicles. In the other hand the possibility of having two races on the same day is very real.

Have you moved to Cal? The only reason I ask is that I see that you are from TX, not that I have a problem with people coming that far to race. Heck I may even give a few points to those that will travel more than a certain distance to enter... :-)
Have a great week end
Tony

elmariachi
10-24-2009, 12:35 PM
Just posted on those sites.
Two area of concern as far as UTVs go. Gas tanks and roll overs and the door area.
I am worried about a roll over and gas not be contained and/or the gas line from the tank be ruptured or come off. Does anybody know if the stock system deals with this?
As far as the doors go. I don't know if anybody is doing this but I can see a business from producing a reasonably priced kit that installs fairly easily a tubular structure in order to enclose the area + nets.
If anybody was monitoring the MORE Relay at the PP right at the end of the second race a call went out that a spectator had rolled his UTV down a hill.
Broken arm. I can't believe that the manufacturers are not being sued left right and center over this.
Tony

The lawyers are already trying to set-up a class action lawsuit against Yamaha: YouTube - Pensacola ATV Accident Lawyer Rhino Rollover Injury Attorney (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=OCLOtqo39NQ)

As far as tech it would be good to adopt the BITD rules for the UTVS (http://www.bitd.com/images/stories/pdfs/2007bitdutvrulebook0506.pdf). Sort of how the majority of racers currently build to SCORE regs, have UTVs/lites built to SCORE/BITD/UTVRA rules (UTV Racing Association (http://utvracingassociation.com/)). I think this would eliminate confussion and standardize safety and allow racing across multiple oranization instead of builders trying to satisfy one org and being knocked-out from another. I think the only real difference between BITD and SCORE is that SCORE will allow motor swap rhinos/rzrs/tyrex/etc. Alot of people are out trying to promote the sport but are being too restrictive by requiring only certain motors be allowed (i.e., Yamaha R1) or requiring that certain parts be used by all racers. While this is great for the person supplying the parts to make you "legal" this knocks off a lot a cars already built.

Their are a lot of people (especially in So Cal) on the sidelines right now looking for a place to race and to do it inexpensively (I'm not saying you should not be rewarded for your hard work setting-up something succesful, but put in place too many restriction and a lot people will not want to play/pay). It would be great to see the days of FUD and AMA (which used to allow Honda Odessey/Pilot racing). As a thought, maybe you could piggy-back on District 37 races. Have the UTVS/lites race later in the afternoon or the next day. The course would already be marked and would only have to be modified in places too narrow for a rhino to get through. You might be able to do the same with MORE/MDR/SNORE which don't allow UTVS. I hear DRIVE (http://www.drive-racing.com/) allows UTVS, but on a smaller course. Also, post-up on Glamis Dunes (http://www.glamisdunes.com/invision/index.php?showforum=182); lots of race discussion going on here also.

Like was said in the movie "Field of Dreams": Build it and they will come. Build a UTV/Lite racer friendly ORG and they will come race. [smilie=ecstatic.gi:

diirk
10-24-2009, 01:26 PM
Actually, I think MORE does allow UTV's. They follow the UTVRA rules.
I believe Tut helped them set upp the requirements.

elmariachi
10-24-2009, 01:36 PM
Actually, I think MORE does allow UTV's. They follow the UTVRA rules.
I believe Tut helped them set upp the requirements.

I think this is only for the Powder Puff Race. They don't want to allow the smaller cars to be on the same looped-course as a Trophy Truck or Class 1. UTVs would be lapped eventually leading to some scary situations. Something about not enough room between the driver and the rear of the car (try telling that to the Class 11s). I could see a P.O.'d Class 1 punting a UTV off the course :eek:

Tonico
10-24-2009, 07:59 PM
MORE only does it for the PP series. At this point there are no plans to include them in the future (I asked). MDR seems to be including them as is DRIVE.
I went to Cal City and was a bit disappointed. There were exactly zero mini's of any kind entered. Just bikes and quads. The terrain does look in better condition than Barstow which is to be expected. I was hopping to chat with anybody that was already racing minis or UTV's for impressions on the area. Oh well.
Tut, dude!! I did make it to Kartek on the way back. I may have to rethink about the class 3000. Did you see those monsters compared to yours over there? The Predator comes in at 1995lbs. And it uses a Comet CVT. When it comes to the real world it is "affordable" at less than $30K. The others are using Mendeola transmissions and go for around $50K. The price does not bother me, people will spend what they spend. But having them on the same track as cars weighing in at around half bothers me. Besides the 85" width
I don't know if they can be considered mini's, just because of the 103" wheelbase.
Maybe my earlier idea of a "Manx" class restricted to 80", stock VW dimensions, 1600 motor/trans, choice of link pin or ball Joint, Swing axle or IRS. Sort of like a class 9 only using the pan and a Manx style body with a cage.
Another option would be a sort of class 9, with 103" wheelbase and the choice of ball joint or Link pin FE and the choice swing or IRS trans. Basic stock VW 1600 engine.
How do you do against them anyway?
Tony

Tonico
10-24-2009, 08:10 PM
Again the main issue that I see with a UTV stock class is probably the fuel tank followed by the cage. I have to admit that spending thousands of dollars
on a long travel suspension and than nickel and dime on the fuel tank sort of is not too logical. I don't care what anybody says but under desert racing conditions some will roll, it is a given. You have to plan for that.
I would like to get a better feeling for all those people on the side lines looking to race inexpensively. Exactly what are their concerns? I have looked at the BITD rules and they don't really show much in the lines of being very restrictive.
Tony

elmariachi
10-24-2009, 09:02 PM
Again the main issue that I see with a UTV stock class is probably the fuel tank followed by the cage. I have to admit that spending thousands of dollars
on a long travel suspension and than nickel and dime on the fuel tank sort of is not too logical. I don't care what anybody says but under desert racing conditions some will roll, it is a given. You have to plan for that.
I would like to get a better feeling for all those people on the side lines looking to race inexpensively. Exactly what are their concerns? I have looked at the BITD rules and they don't really show much in the lines of being very restrictive.
Tony

A fuel cell would deffinately be a must. No org currently will allow you to race without one (even Class 11s have to have a fuel cell). I would talk with Cory Sappington (Cory S) over on the UTVRA site. He races a "stock" rhino in the BITD series and does quite well. Ask him about his "stock" set-up.

Check out the SR1 thread on UTV Underground for all the Cheers and jeers around this "limited unlimited" class (http://www.utvunderground.com/f58/sr1-suggested-rules-up-2171.html). Some are all for it, some against (at least some of the rules).

BITD rules are really the standard out there right now; they just will not allow a motor swap (at least not in the Pro Class; they will bump you down to Sportman Class).

Tonico
10-25-2009, 08:26 PM
For some reason I missed that BITD does NOT have a stock class. I got it mixed up with SXS National series rules:

SUPER STOCK: A SXS as the manufacture designed and built it. The only modications that will be allowed in the stock class are wheel
spacers, CDI box, carb , air lter, exhaust, and the addition of the following for safety measures.
Required:
* A full body including bed sides and bumpers
* Window Nets
* ˝ Doors w/one side impact bar
* Roof
* Race seats x2
* 5 point harness
* Helmet, hand & Eye Protection
* Fire suit
* Neck Brace
* Fire extinguisher
* Aftermarket roll cage: bolted or securely welded to frame and attached to rear frame.
* Minimum 1200 lbs w/12 gallon max fuel cell

MOD Pro , MOD Am : a modied SXS having a built motor and or a long travel suspension. Wheel spacers, CDI box, air lter, and exhaust will
also be acceptable modications in the MOD class, with the addition of the following for safety measures.
Required:
* A full body including bed sides and bumpers
* Window Nets
* Full doors
* Roof
* Race seats x2
* 5 point harness
* Helmet, hand & Eye Protection
* Fire suit
* Neck Brace
* Fire extinguisher
* Safety fuel cell
* Aftermarket roll cage
* Minimum 1200 lbs w/12 gallon max fuel cell

Open Outlaw : an Open Outlaw SXS having a built motor and or a long travel suspension. Turbo, Nitrous, supercharged , streetbike motors
O.K. , up to 1200cc motor with the addition of the following for safety measures. (no automotive motors allowed)
Wheelbase must be within specs.
Required:
* A full body including bed sides and bumpers
* Window Nets
* Full doors
* Roof
* Race seats x2
* 5 point harness
* Helmet, hand & Eye Protection
* Fire suit
* Neck Brace
* Fire extinguisher
* Safety fuel cell
* Aftermarket roll cage
* Minimum 1200 lbs w/12 gallon max fuel cell

Note that in the Super Stock a "Safety Fuel Cell" is not mentioned.

I am also going to try to clarify BITD's rule on fuel cells. They say : "Rotary molded polymer cells are acceptable".... Well now than if you go to the Jazz site a ""Rotary molded polymer cells are acceptable" does not have a metal enclosure. With that said they do have them enclosed in a metal container which is what many people use....
I really hate it when terms which have been around for decades even before off road racing come into it's own in the wrong context... I realize that "fuel cell" sounds way cooler than "fuel tank". But hey to a rule bender such as myself that is all I need to go left field.

Tony

DrakAttack
10-26-2009, 12:03 AM
I've always been interested in getting one of the existing organizations to start some new classes. I'll bet if there was enough interest you could get MORE or BITD to start a new class. The folks at Glen Helen are always very accommodating when it comes to this.

What a monumental task to start up a whole new organization from scratch..everything from insurance to dealings with the BLM..why not improve on whats there..

gootjr
10-26-2009, 02:08 AM
Count us in our intension with our newest car was to be a dezert/sand car and to be able to race some short courses. We are building the cars with all 1.25" or 1.5" main cage following the Score rule book. Our wheelbase is 86".
http://i423.photobucket.com/albums/pp319/gootjr/IMG_1007.jpg
http://i423.photobucket.com/albums/pp319/gootjr/IMG_1014.jpg

Thanks Bob

TutTech
10-26-2009, 09:04 AM
Well that is a little to bad about CAl City but again another reason for you to build it so they will come.
Glen Helen gets minis. I know of 4 from this site alone have raced there I do believe.

Drak and others, No MORE does not allow UTVs. I have tried and mini buggies as well... nothing. Part of it he said was insurance that he uses an automotive racing based insurance and would have to carry another policy or something for the motorcycle powered guys. This would actually raise the cost of racing. That was one reason and two was he was worried about safety on the course because MORE runs loop'd courses where people will catch and have to pass them. So no MORE will not allow them except for powder puff and then they only race in the morning group with the 3000 cars.
I asked as MORE and other organization say if you can get 10 cars in a class you can start a new class and I was still told no do to those reasons that he would not do it.


Tony the reason I say the class 3000 is because it is a growing class and you could get addition sponsors and interest to help your new organization grow. If it becomes a problem stop allowing them end of story. But as of now for the past 4 years my wife has raced in the smaller group of cars in the morning to include the utvs and mini buggies.. chenowth mini mags etc.. and she has never nerfed a single one when passing them.

This is where the no nerfing rule comes into play.
Plus you set up courses with tons of two lanes and sections of passing.
The 3000 weigh in up to 2,500 which is about 50% heavier than a utv etc. which is exactly
the same as a trophy truck unlimited buggy compared to us at only 2,300 pounds and them weighing up to 5,500! They can and do hit us as there is nerfing at other organizations and we are holding up.
But again this is where the no nerfing comes into play.

If not and it does not feel right don't do it.
I totally understand just bringing some of the track info to attention and if that does not help then cool.
As for a class 9 car? The better drivers, Bud Ward, Rash and maybe one more or so can keep up with us. The rest we pretty much pass. The just beat themselves more and we take it easier and handle everything much better. But I think if you allow a 1 1/2 inch tubing frame with an automotive engine people will push it to the limits also. There is always someone who will take it to far... like you said you went to Kartek and you saw how big those new 3000 cars are! Heck 35 inch tires, 1 3/4 tubing because they are weighing over 2,500 pounds, full 934 micros and even floaters and like you said mendeola trannies. Yikes! Ya we are just a little bus box and vw car. Anyways... But see how far they are tacking class 3000 and building things bigger and bigger? Shoot the Ful Potential car there said they had 90,000 dollars into it!!! :eek:

Well, I will leave that up to you but just an idea to get some other racers in..
You could call them by a different name and set up a class that just fits into that catagory with more restrictions. Lighter in case they do collide with someone they will be less weight?
The 103 inch wheel base is tough as many minis are even longer than that.. so ya hard to say your a mini with 35 inch tires and 90K invested into your mini just because it has a 103 inch wheel base.
I hear you on that.
Hmm tough call but you could have a more open class of buggies but they must weigh under 2,000 and have smaller motors? Not sure as then people from other organizations will not run.. or they could switch out motors? Ya think on this and see what you want to do.
If you allow manx body cars those guys are actually just as heavy etc. with a pan and body and then cage etc. Besides it is fun to have some wheel travel and smaller motor like our car. We ride great all day, our max speed with our vw motor is now 66mph.. he he... and we have a blast and can walk the next day. :D

As for the fuel cell I san mandatory... it is a small price to pay to save your life.. if you ever want to talk to someone about fire and protection talk to Art himself from ARTS safety and tech. BUrned to death, died and actually came back. Years of work and he lost his hand, fingers, etc. Very bad.
Just talk to him about a fuel cell. Whats a couple hundred bucks if your going to invest in racing?
Also go to Kartek and sign up with your racer info and set up a racer account and a lot of companies will give you a discount because you buy more often and buy racing parts that are dated or need regular replacements etc. The fuel cell will be cheaper if you do this and so will seat belts and window nets. Plenty of other things but that is just off the top of my head of some of the things. Serious check into it.
;)

Well I believe this racing is a total build it and they will come type deal.
I remember in 2002 and going to my first MORE race. Hmm something like 25 cars and after the race Jim cooked hot dogs and other people brought some stuff up to the starting line and the trailer.
We hung out and everyone talked about the day we all had racing. People thanked me for my crew helping to change a clutch and loaning tools etc. and were happy we had come to MORE to race.
It was the start of a great time for my wife and I.
I told everyone I new about the great time and the BBQ MORE put on for us and how fun it was.
The other people did the same and so on and so on and the racing grew.
I went in an talked to Kartek about MORE and so did several of the other racers and starting the next year Kartek sponsored MORE!
Now MORE is bigger than some of the SCORE races lately!
Larger than MDR or anyone especially as far as the all female Powder Puff race the MORE event holds the world record for most female racers desert racing and are trying to get that into the guiness book of records even.

What I am saying is if you do it and do it right with a great time had by all they will tell others and so on. If you can provide a great time for all then you will be great organizer with people telling everyone and everyone wanting to come race. You will grow and so on.
But you have to take a risk and build it and do it and handle all the red tape etc. and find a fair price for all to race. Cut out payback and money for now to keep costs down and let people side bet one another if they want.
Just some good old racing fun and a place where smaller minis just can't race anywhere else with anyone else yet in CA. can come and race and have fun.
If it is the people from this site then I know everyone will have a blast, help one another out, not nerf or be unsportsman and go out of their way to watch out for one another and make sure everyone is safe and has a great time. Just like MORE when it first started. ;):)

Gootjr, ya your cars are going to be hard to beat and anyone who shows up racing one is going to do amazing and have a blast. What size motor (I think you said 1000cc) and what class are you going to run it in, in the desert?
Are you guys building one for you or is it a customers?
I am working on my mini almost as small as yours but a little bigger little over a foot and a two seater.
I just want to build my own and test it before I offer one up you know what I mean.;)

Well now you have my head all spinning about that motor and what not.. dang I just wanted to get one of my frames and cars done so I can test it and get it done.. sheesh now I want to do so much more and go race it with you! [smilie=ecstatic.gi:

DrakAttack
10-26-2009, 04:50 PM
Great effort guys! I hope this thing pans out. That would be way cool!

I haven't been out since BITD Vegas to Reno the Long Way! Actually a little busy around here for a change:cool:

Tonico
10-26-2009, 09:04 PM
I have met Art. Sorta like me and the helmet laws. I don't particularly like the idea of people being forced to wear helmets by law, BUT I wear one. Why, well I have cracked helmet as a result of a head on with a car that tried turning in front of me... a bunch of stitches on one leg and here I am still kicking. I don't think I would have survived the "vertical" landing if it was not for the helmet.
I have to say that these discussions help a lot. Nothing like trying to bounce ideas with someone who would rather talk about chrome wheels than fuel cells....
My project this week is to see what I can find about insurance. I have found a couple or so companies but I need to talk to them about it. I have also asked Jim who he uses but from what you are telling me it may go nowhere. Do you know of others? I know about K&K.
I think I will go with the fuel cells across the board. I was looking at the standard set up and a roll in the wrong place and I can see a rock taking out the stock plastic cap. I would rather try to steer people on how to get one installed relatively inexpensively.
I know about the Kartek "racer account". I have one. I have bough most of the bits for my Class9 project from them.
I wonder if anyone reading this that is in the UTV modifications industry could come up with a "safety racing kit" that would include everything required to take bone stock UTV (probably a Rhino at first) from stock to race worthy, for a reasonable price.
As far the 3000's go. How about a weight limit of 2000lbs? You probably saw the Predator out there. That is the second car that I have seen with the Ecotec and a CVT. Just at less than 2000lbs with a 1 1/2" chassis. One can introduce some limits that will force the builder to stay within a realistic cost and size. Good examples are the class 9's. They really do not differ that much from the time they were introduced.
Come to think of it an "unlimited" sort of Class 9 would fit the class. My original 9, was actually a real old Hi-Jumper chassis single seater that I got at Pomona for like $100 (rust was free). I cut the front tubes and modified it to get the 100" wheelbase and fit the ball joint front end. It looked a little strange but the body covered up a multitude of sins and it worked. Good for a third for the year at very early Glen Helen. Rolled it twice. Replace the roof panel and one case both rear axles, good to go.
Make no error I would love to have automotive engines in the mix but I do not like the idea of them developing into some kind of short wheelbase Class 1.
Tony

diirk
10-26-2009, 10:46 PM
With the fuel cell and extras I've added to my Predator, I wouldn't be surprised if it rolls in over 2000 lbs. But, if you decide to allow it, we'd be very interested in running in your series. Maybe you can trial a few of the larger cars, like Tut's and ours and see how they work in the mix...

Tonico
10-27-2009, 07:57 AM
One thing that I am trying to do just to get class definitions is create a list of known Manufacturers of turn key MC powered buggies and plans. I know that I have missed some but here's what I have so far:
Redline
Drakart
Sinister
Prolite
Rorty
Panther ATK
Edge
URL's would be nice, but not really required. I am looking for wheelbse, width, weight, single seat/Dual seat, engine type.

Tony

TutTech
10-27-2009, 10:04 AM
Here is the sites list that I know of with links to most of them.. some stopped working.. so not sure if those are around.
Here
http://www.minibuggy.net/forum/minibuggy-net-lounge/4735-links-rail-builders-part-suppliers.html


Ya window nets, fire suits, fuel cell, helmets, fire extinquisher etc. should be a must.
Plus I bet it will help with your insurance. Not sure of any other insurance companies but Jim does get coverage for powder puff but it may just be more or something so he for many reasons chooses not to let them run.

As for the larger cars maybe like Diirk says you try it and see if you like them being out there.
Make it the class 9 unlimited class.. ha ha... that is exactly what our car is. I took a class 9 car like my brothers and made mine with a bigger beam, coil overs and was under 100 inches. VW engine and do to the steel tubing I come in just over the 2,000 pounds also. Last time weighing it was 2,150 but I added bead locks and Bfg tires.. so I am a little more again.
I built for safety not speed. Oh and that bigger car in class 3000 at Kartek with 35 inch tires etc. with 1 3/4 tubing is because it weighs in over 2,500 more like 3,000 so it needed the 1 3/4 tubing. So go with maybe 2,500 or less and 33 inch tires or less. . or even 31 inch tires or something.

With our car Pepper will be driving it and I will be driving the mini I'm working on.
But maybe see who shows up for now and if you see a problem or big cars start to show up then say no. Or have the cars be say under 12 foot or 13 ft total length?
Something like that could keep eveything more to scale also.
I think it is ok to have them and think they will work out as long as the no nerfing rule is in place and that way you will get some of other types of racers and sponsors out there.
Sponsors like Kartek, Mckenaies etc. may not jump on board with motorcycle buggies but will as Kartek and a few other companies back the 3000 cars. So you can get them over maybe because of the 3000 and this can help the greater racing good? Maybe?

Just off the top of my head you will have Pepper in Kitt, Diirk, ElDiablo and a couple others from the site. Also MAD who built the Canade class 10 race car builds some very cool little buggies in mostly VW engine but also in other motors. His cars are smaller and fit in this class and he is getting pushed a side do to the larger cars also. So he would probably love to come race with you. I can talk to him. Post about this on racedezert and you will probably get his attention over there.
Here is his site.
Mad Racing Offroad Racing Parts Supplies Design Sales and Repairs (http://www.madracingoffroad.com/index.htm)
Plus like me he makes single seaters which are smaller and much more of a mini.

Anyways again up to you think on it.
Maybe come up with some tighter rules.. 31 inch tires, 13 foot total length and not to exceed 2000 pounds? Open suspension 9 car class. Which if you do that then our car fits that pretty good. ;)

As for the safety set up for UTV's I can check and see what a set of add on aluminum doors, window nets, fuel cell etc. all adds up to and see what we can do to put a complete kit together for people interested. If people are please let me know.

Well cool looks like you need to keep doing homework and get some dates into BLM or you wont be doing this until the following year.
MORE just put up their dates for next years season.. not sure if you have seen them.
Find me at the next race if you can and lets meet up.
;)

diirk
10-27-2009, 01:00 PM
I thought you were running 32's Tut....

Tonico
10-27-2009, 07:53 PM
Yep I am leaning towards the 3K's at their standard 103" wheelbase and a weight of 2500lbs, automobile engines only for now. I can sometimes overthink the heck out of something to death.
I don't want to turn tech into a science project. KISS is key.
I now have the company that Jim uses for insurance and the coverage. I will call them sometime this week to get an idea of costs.
I am also considering just having one class for "Stadium lights" restricted to 600cc and a "M/C engine class" up to 1200cc and 110" wheelbase.
Does anybody know where there is a set of rules for "stadium lights"?
I have posted in RDC and a number of other places. Some takers in fact I am probably up to 12 or so. I just posted on Redline forum. Before that I did Weller (SR1) thanked me for thinking of them, there's interest there. I think that I am reaching "critical mass".
Also I like your idea of a one day race. Tech in morning and race the afternoon. Many times I used to go up to Barstow just to watch tech on Fridays. On the way back I would see these poor dudes stuck in the horrible jam that occurs just before the 15/215 merge... Should help those that work for a living. Don't have to worry about camping arrangements.
BTW I can bring the Kaw engine up on the December race. Let me know.
Yeah a lot of homework.
BTW the BLM wants a map of the track when you make the aplication. I first want to meet with them and get to the bottom of the do's and don'ts. I don't want to put in a lot of effort and only to be told to go pound sand (not that I really mind :-), do it all the time :-)).
Tony

Tony

evan
10-27-2009, 10:14 PM
Look for "mid-west"
http://www.minibuggy.net/forum/class-development/6955-should-builders-follow-certain-class-rules.html

Tonico
10-28-2009, 07:57 AM
Opinions?

TutTech
10-28-2009, 09:13 AM
Ya you and me both on that do a lot of work and then nothing... but as you said I also enjoy it so I don't mind doing a lot of the stuff I do either. But I have built many of frames for people to never see them get built. But oh well that's ok. I just really want to get my own frame done.

The map thing with blm is interesting.. first don't you need their maps that show their course a b and c for example out at barstow so you can make a course? As I have been told you can not use new lands and are only allowed to use these courses. You can mix and match them but must stick to them.
Well if nothing else we can use say an old MORE map and make the corrections to it and then use that to give to them? Could work. Also if you have a gps you can go mark the new course? The smaller course and give them that on gps and see what they say?

Cool about the insurance curious to hear what they say.

Well sounds like your getting down through the homework and should be moving onto some actual leg work soon. Let me know when you want to meet up for checking out tracks etc. and see what all we can come up with? like I said I am really only about 45 minutes from Barstow towing a trailer.
35 without.

As for the motor I will talk to you more about it so no worries about bringing it so soon.
Maybe when we meet up for checking out tracks etc. we can, but for now please hold onto it
why I work out some stuff. Thanks.

I think if your going to have 3 classes for UTVs you should do the same for the buggies.
Make them the same.
Stock, modified and open.
Open is well open.. tire size, etc. Any wheel base, motor etc.

On a side note, I used to have a 95 inch wheel base but when the rules changed and they allowed us to go up to 103 my car seemed slower and I was having a tougher time keeping up.
So I lengthend my car and you know what my car picked up 11 mph hours over the same terrain!
That is incredible. Simply amazing and if I had not done it and recorded before and after footage I would not believe it.
So you really need to keep your classes to the wheel base rules.
Stock and modified should be under a certain size both engines and wheel base.
Open then you can go over the 100 inch. But the others should be something like stock 90 inch or less and modified 100 or less and open over 100.
Wheel base is a huge factor for desert racing. Short course no worries but desert wow what a difference. I would keep an eye on wheel base more than almost anything.. next to motors.

Also if you do an open class that way if a turbo guy showed up once he could race. Later if you get to many or enough I should say of like vehicles then they can form a new class.
I think you will need an open class to fit everyone who has already home built there buggies to fit into.
A ton of us garage builders just went for it and built a buggy and would love to come race it.
But may not fit into any of your rules unless you just do an open class.


As for the 3000 Keeping it to the original 2,500 pound 103 inch wheel base, automotive motor class would be perfect. I think that would allow a lot of the still smaller class 3000 cars to come race.
Especially the single seat 3000 cars that are no longer allowed because the official rules for BITD etc. say there must be two riders in the vehicle. SCORES rules say you can be a single seat. The single seat makes the car smaller and more mini and so fits better with your style and type of racing your setting up. Very cool. This works and I like.

Diirk nope I run 31 inch tall BFG tires.
;)

My mini buggy I am setting up to clear 30 inch tall tires.. they actually measure 29 tall but are called 30 inch on the side wall.

Well cool I have talked to a couple friends and what not and so far they have all had positive input and been excited to hear about the mini buggy racing.
1 of my buddies wants a mini buggy built now. :D
Plus my wife is super excited to throw me out of her car Kitt and ride with her girlfriends and race an all girls team at your races. Very cool.
So I really have to get a mini built now. :)

I really think this is a great thing your doing and I really hope it pays off and all comes together.
Like I said I have some friends and sponsors that may step up if this really takes off.
So please take off with this and do it.... as said before: "Build it and they will show up to race." ;):D

ps. The logo is looking pretty good.. I like the way your thinking and that is cool that your already on your way with a logo.. Sweet!

Tonico
10-28-2009, 08:12 PM
I want to keep the class definitions as straight forward and simple as possible. As I said I don't want to turn tech inspections into science projects.
There is one other thing that I may add to the "stock" buggies is CVT's required. The 90" wheel base will take care of most all Stadium/Short Course
lights with engines at 800cc four stroke and 500cc two stroke.
Mod buggies at 100" wheel base, 1000cc engines, any transmission.
Open 110", 1200cc, m/c engines only.
If someone rolls up with a turbo, he gets a 5 minute per lap handicap or something like that.
I am not initially going to worry about tire size or or suspension travel for now.
I think that I will clarify that anyone can take a 90" car and shoehorn a 1000cc or 1200 cc engine in it and race in the next class or two classes up. The wheelbase rule is for Max. no minimum required.
The class 3k seems to have been settled.
The mod and outlaw UTV's also settled on BITD rules. The stock I am having a real problem with not having a fuel cell, the roll bar and I have also noticed that some have a bench seats, etc. Bottom line here is that if you take a stock Rhino you'll probably spend upwards of $2-2.5k to make it race worthy. Most will rather spend that on a long travel suspension and than get pissed off because they have to spend just as much to make it a mod and still get severely whipped by those whose spend twice as much... If you looked at every single UTV at Kartek not one had a fuel cell and most probably had upwards of $5K. I can see why BITD on purpose or not did not bother with a UTV stock class.

As far as BLM goes this is why I want to have a face to face discussion with them. Going from what they have on line it appears that they will consider any track/location. But it is entirely possible that in reality
they may not allow most of the trails. Maybe if you did a poker run with road registered cars you maybe allowed to use access roads as an example.
Mind you some of them are starting to look like racing trails.
They also have a "survey charge which maybe for "new areas". I don't know now but will clarify. I am hoping that they will be more lenient considering the much shorter loops that I am looking for.
Oh yes wheelbase is one area where size matters.... a lot. Class 1's did not get to be as long as they are by accident.
Is it my imagination or the Redline guys are just the most competitive around? I have just run a count and I am up to 18 very interested across Here, RDC and the Redline forum.
About the logo, I have a vinyl cutter so I can flood the world with rear window stickers... :-)

Tony

elmariachi
10-28-2009, 11:23 PM
Wow!!! Things seem to be going in teh right direction.[smilie=ecstatic.gi: For the minis I would suggest you take a look at the TORC (Australia) rules: http://torc.com.au/buggyv12final.pdf . Man, I wish we had an organization like that here in California dedicated to minis. Take a look at some of the videos on their site (TORC Racing Club (http://torc.com.au/)). They seem to get a very healthy turnout of minis at their races. Their type of racing seems to be mostly flat track with a few jumps, but the basic rules would seem to transfer to the desert. Rorty minis would definately fit in here so you should have steady supply of back yard builders waiting for the chance to go racing.

I did some digging around and managed to find an old pin from the All-Terain Racing Association (ARA) days up in Barstow. If I remember right this org delt with three wheelers (remember those?) and Pilots/odesseys. You can see a three wheeler and an odessey on the pin. I remember they used to get about 30 pilots/odesseys showing up to race. It sure would be great to see something similar today for racing minis [smilie=jumping.gif]

Tonico
10-29-2009, 07:27 AM
As far as Stock UTV's go something poped into my head. How about making this the "Class 11" of our series? We all know the Class 11 exists mainly for sentimental reasons. Anyone known to nerf a class 11 becomes public enemy #1.
So considering the numbers the Rhino basically fits in the same place as the Stock VW. Make this class Rhinos only. I am hoping to go talk to a company that does "packages" for various UTV's to see if they will ne interested in coming up with a package that provides all the basic bits necessary to turn a Stock Rhino into a Racing Stock Rhino at a somewhat discounted price.

TutTech
10-29-2009, 09:27 AM
Also let me know about the turning rhinos race ready for stock class or other classes like I said I can get my aluminum guy to make the doors, I can set up the fuel cell, window nets and 5 point harness etc. and come up with a standard safety package and a price.

Sounds good about the rules coming together.. not sure on making the small class cvt for sure that may cause some of the really small motor guys you know briggs and straton kind of guys from racing.. because they are mostly chain. I might leave stuff open the first year and see who shows up.
If you start with to many rules you may limit the turn out. You can always add rules and classes if need be and keep stuff more fun and simple like you said easy tech just check the safety and go type stuff an let people more run what they brung type of situation the first year.

The people that show up get them involved after the races at the awards presentation to vote etc. on stuff. Also so you can see does this motor or that tranny just have an edge and should be moved into another class anyways type deal.
I would just get people to show and with only a few races able to be ran next year anyways with blm making you you wait 6 months from now to even hold your first race that will not leave room for to many races next year. Maybe just have an event or two to get everyones feet wet and everyone excited. Kind of like a practice for the real deal the following year type of deal.
Just some thoughts in case.. if your ready then go for it. ;)

Also you may want to include some run what you brung type 13 class.
So some of the cars that just don't match up can run in there.. then you can watch lap times etc. and put them into a class maybe next race? Or work with them to get them into the best class later.
But could be cool for say a 4x4 buggy or ... well you just never know.

Also you sure only motorcycle motors? I was looking at these numbers..
Stock Busa 1300cc 175 HP 98 lbs Torque.
Stock VW 1600cc 55 HP 150 lbs Torque.

But I have seen the mini buggies running speeds close to if not over 100mph with those motors and horse power.
Yet my vw engine using pump gas not race fuel, single carb, used to only run 55mph. With the smaller tires and you can only go so big on a vw ring a pinon the speed is actually less.
You can tell where I am going right? ha ha. :D

You are also correct about new areas being used but the cost is so massive you can not afford to do it. If I remember correctly the new survey charge used to be 25,000!!!
Ya right.
Just use the 3 courses already there and just pick and choose and you can tie them all together or parts etc. and make some nicer smaller loops.
Also you can start over at Slash X and not do the really rough stuff at Outlet center and instead do a big like 5 mile type course to if you wanted. Tons of options and areas. Go explore at the next race we are going 45 miles usually on the one course then doing another 20 miles on the other course.
That is 65 miles of land totally for you to pick and choose your own smaller courses from.

Also over at lucerne they have the dry lake bed.. super fun and the minis can really see how fast they are and you can do any size course you choose there from just a single mile to whatever you want. I can also show you that one if you like.

Also talk to the blm about the cars being motorcycle powered.. no v-8s and no big cars or trucks what so ever. All smaller cars and less damage to the desert etc. might cost less or make a difference.

elmariachi, good info and link to the buggy stuff.. nice thanks for helping. So when you going to build a mini an race?
Also you can check AVI I beleive they have a lot of rules done and classes set up they run. Last I read theres they were very detailed and good. Worth looking into.

Well cool.. when do we start.. ha ha... ok you keep working on it and what did you say 8 people intrested and you just told us a week or so ago and we have 6 months until you can even come close to holding the first race? You will have more trust me.

Good luck and I can not wait.
;):)

Tonico
10-29-2009, 07:30 PM
I said 18. Out of that there are 5 or so that have builds partially done who all of a sudden have a reason to finish them off.
Keep in mind that the guys with the busa's grear the like 150mph top gear ratio down to more like 100mph or even less. They pick up quite a bit of torque at the wheels that way. A bike engined buggy will be a good 200lbs lighter than the VW.
Other than real small go-karts I think most do use CVTs to a jack shaft and than a chain to the rear axle. A good example are the Trophy Karts, which incidentally I have in the back of my mind to also be include.
As far as the stock UTV's what I am looking for would be a Cage, fuel cell, seats, belts, door covers, nets kit relatively simple to install or even offer installation services. I would like to be able to tell some guy who has a stock UTV or if I go with the Class 11 concept, to go to company X and that for $n, can be on the track the next race.
I was at a dealer in Murrieta this afternoon. These things are going for less than $15K and can be financed for like $150/month.
BTW it goes to show what Barstow can be. On the PP race I drove my buggy to contingency. I did not follow the trail next to the actual asphalt road. I cut across quite a bit further away for awhile I thought I was going to loose some major part of the buggy. I did not quite get it. They don't race there do they? In the other hand I got some crap in my carb and the throttle was a on-off switch: idle and full, nothing in between. Makes things fun... :-)
Tony

TutTech
10-30-2009, 09:01 AM
OOOps I ment 18 miss typed the 1.. sorry.. but good point anyways.. you already have that many an your only in your first month of planning. Now wait until you have a date and time to race.
Then the fun will begin.

I like everything your saying and looks like I will just end up building two buggies.
As the soonest you can race looks to be in 6 months according to blm. I already bought and paid for an expensive vw motor, bus tranny with all choromoly gears, shafts, super diff etc. and 930 race cups.
So I am going to continue on with that. Might as well. I will just make it a dual sport of sorts.

Then when you get closer and able to hold a race I was thinking of putting a single seater maybe together and come race. So that is why I said hold onto the motor for now. ;)

Well cool sounds fun and your looking good with all the info your getting.
Ya the rhinos can be had for pretty cheap and putting a safer cage and some safety parts on is not
a horrible price to pay if you want to race them. Like I said I can check with my buddy and I can see what I can do for cages for people and we can set people up ready to race.

As for the area your talking about no I dont believe any racing goes there.. the main course is at the start finish line and then heads either way down the freeway.. up over the collage or down to wild wash.

Like I was saying we could come in over at slash x and really do a small enough course like maybe even just 2 or 3 miles and be able to see everyone if it was a night race you could see everyones lights on and make a cool small course for example that would not be to rough.. maybe valley floor and one hill just for fun. Thats it. Could work out? I think we can go as small as you like or as big the more I think on it. Especially at Lucerne off camp rock at the dry lake bed, shoot you can do a 1 mile course there easily.

Well cool keep us posted and sounds like your getting it dialed in.
Can't wait for everything to come together. Pepper is ready to show up with Kitt already and thinking of her own team name for when it is the girls only in her car. ;):D

Tonico
10-30-2009, 09:12 PM
Nothing is ever simple for me, but I am used to it. The company that insures MORE does not seem to insure off road racing any longer. The ones that they have they will keep but no new ones. They will confirm this Monday. BUT!!! They did put me onto one of their competitors which seem interested and will mail me some forms. There is also K&K which do seem to do off road racing even of they spell Baja as "Baha".... :-) Also requested info.

I did a little spread sheet with the 2010 schedules for More, MDR, Superstition, I wanted to include Drive but I can't find their 2010 schedule.

Than shivers went up and down my spine. My first race with HDRA was the "FireCracker 250" on the 4th of July many many years ago... In 2010 the 4th is a Sunday.... What do you guys think? Start the series with a bang... You just know that it will be a party. I identified a total of five dates which will verify as soon as I see the Drive schedule with the last one being....
Yes December 31. It will conflict with Superstition, but I suspect that few will want to be at both.... Begin the series and end the first year with a party.....
Tony

elmariachi
10-30-2009, 11:53 PM
I did a little spread sheet with the 2010 schedules for More, MDR, Superstition, I wanted to include Drive but I can't find their 2010 schedule.


Don't forget to include BITD, SCORE, & SNORE. Lots of "dezert people" will help chase/pit for other teams at these larger events or they just go to spectate.

gootjr
10-31-2009, 12:15 AM
That is a good point there are many organizations in placce I wonder if it would be easier to be under one of thier programs.

Tonico
10-31-2009, 06:48 AM
I have though about this. I can't see how that would work for a variety of reasons. The whole point of what I am doing is to have a series that is governed by the needs of the mini off road vehicle drivers. All of the existing series tack on some classes as a second thought.
Shorter laps, shorter races, unique classes. BITD as an example does not have a Stock UTV Class and most of the Bike Powered buggies would land up either in Sportsman Class or Class 1 or not be allowed at all.... This would be true for most others.
AVE (Cal City) even though on the race that I went to seemed to indicate that there were supposed to be minis. I suspect that the prospect of a 50 mile loop with the "pits" at the start finish line only may have put some people off. Add to that the way that was set up clearly would be a nightmare for the smallest of minis plus I really have reservations about putting bikes and caged cars on the same track, specially with small loops.
Oh, and now they are requiring IRC. Actually what they are doing now does not track you live but rather record your route and after words they download it and overlay it on the real track to see if you had cut any corners....Days later. Nothing but a sealed GPS in a box. Next year apparently they will have live tracking. Now I don't know how much that will cost but if the cost of that in the SCORE series is any indication the rental of per race is well over $500/race.... Any takers?
Now one possibility would be to rent the Glen Helen track, just for our series. I may entertain that thought AFTER we have a couple of races and everybody sees the benefit in that.
One though that I had was to try to convince MORE who does not plan at this time to add UTV's. What I was contemplating was us racing on the same track of maybe a shorten loop on the Sundays after the regular Saturday race.
Sundays are just not that convenient for most everybody and still it would require MORE to add additional insurance, etc.
MRM will live or die by it's own merits.

Tony

TutTech
10-31-2009, 03:36 PM
4th will be hot.. so start it as a saturday evening style race and race into the night.
Talk about fire works!!!
I am fine with it. I have no problems with that.
The smaller cars doing say less laps should be done at dark or do one lap into the night and the bigger cars and UTVs will run into the dark a little? That is awesome and always fun.
What do you think of that?

Then 31st.. hmm tough call as I regularly go to the sand with family and a big group we only meet up once a year.. but don't count us out.. maybe.
;)


Also do you think you will do a series?
Like a championship? So the more people come back the more it counts towards the over all championship for the season and not just 1 race. Like MORE etc. each race counts as some points
and then the person with the most points at the end of the year takes the championship?
We really like this and it really keeps us coming back to each race to win the over all championship in our class.

Well cool nice to know about the info and insurance.
Good luck keep us posted.
;)

Tonico
10-31-2009, 04:51 PM
I am definitely planning to do a series/championship. In fact depending on costs,etc if I am going to keep the entries low I could have something like
MORE's RPBI program. Basically if the racers in a class want to, they can pay an higher entry fee and the difference would go either into an end of the year points fund or a per race purse winner take all kind of thing.
The dates that I identified with potential are:
7/3/10
8/28/10
10/30/10
11/20/10
12/31/10

Sneak peek:
Mojave Racing Minis (http://mysite.verizon.net/res11stk6) (no www). Right now it does not do anything.

Tonico
11-01-2009, 07:51 AM
I have to admit that I am a bit disappointed with the response from the UTV side of things. Something like three, two of which are in the building stages and from the folks that build the SR1. I am starting to wonder if I should just make one UTV class that is open to anything that walks, talks and bounces like a UTV.
Depending on entries that I may create separate classes. I had already made the commitment that if more than ten SR1's consistently showed up I would create their own class.
I have been looking into the Trophy Karts. I had not realized that someone had started producing a "Trophy Kart Elite" which uses a 250cc Dirt Bike motor. I have seen some videos and theses thing go.... Of course there are some out there that are shoehorning some obscenely large motors in them. Or create alternate ones with a 250cc bike engine.
Now, I don't really feel too comfortable in sending someones 14 year old child in a Kart capable of 75mph into a 20 mile loop into the desert, regardless of what their parents say.
These things come with all the right race bits included.
I am thinking of including them with a minimum driver age of 16 and include adults.... I can just hear "So dad what was holding you up?" or "if you beat me you are grounded for life!!" :-)

What do you all think?
Tony

r6eric
11-01-2009, 05:54 PM
tonico those dates will work for me.
eric

elmariachi
11-01-2009, 11:38 PM
I have to admit that I am a bit disappointed with the response from the UTV side of things. Something like three, two of which are in the building stages and from the folks that build the SR1. I am starting to wonder if I should just make one UTV class that is open to anything that walks, talks and bounces like a UTV.
Depending on entries that I may create separate classes. I had already made the commitment that if more than ten SR1's consistently showed up I would create their own class.

In all the stuff I posted-up I forgot to mention Whiplash Racing. They have varios UTV classes INCLUDING a Stock class. Here is the rule book (http://www.whiplashracing.com/Rulebooks/utvrules.pdf). Whiplash is probably the closest thing we will have here in California once MMR gets going:). Its probably time to also starting hitting the local tracks to drum-up potential cars to race. Glenn Helen and Lake Elsinor MX Race Track would be good places to start (or any other place short track UTV racing is taking place). Maybe set-up a table for people to get more info or ask questions.



I have been looking into the Trophy Karts. I had not realized that someone had started producing a "Trophy Kart Elite" which uses a 250cc Dirt Bike motor. I have seen some videos and theses thing go.... Of course there are some out there that are shoehorning some obscenely large motors in them. Or create alternate ones with a 250cc bike engine.
Now, I don't really feel too comfortable in sending someones 14 year old child in a Kart capable of 75mph into a 20 mile loop into the desert, regardless of what their parents say.
These things come with all the right race bits included.
I am thinking of including them with a minimum driver age of 16 and include adults.... I can just hear "So dad what was holding you up?" or "if you beat me you are grounded for life!!" :-)

What do you all think?
Tony


May be a shorter course for the youngsters. Something that could easily be viewed from the main pit area. Real glad you're going forward with this. If there is anything you need in way of help just let us know here on the board.

Tonico
11-02-2009, 06:21 AM
Thanks for the link and suggestions. I have considered the short track idea for the youngsters. That is the sort of thing that will be discussed with the BLM.
Yeap the Whiplash rules are what I was planning for the Stock class.
How is your UTV build coming along?
Tony

Fu21cc
11-03-2009, 12:57 AM
this is a real good idea. if this goes down we should really think about it. i would like it 2 have different classes. w/ the utv's have limited and open or trophy. mini's we can have the same limited, size motors, open single seat or 2 seat. u can even get the the trophy karts in. u can have the race on saturday or the day b4 the MDR or BITD. the big car races we have out here in the imperial valley i think we have the races on sundays. we can have laps like the motorcycles n quad races, have the races in the morning. this is cool cuz if u think about it the people that want 2 dezert race n cant afford racing in a big car. hope this goes thru this can get alot of people that want dezert race can, out here in the imperial valley would have a good size group. theres alot of people from san diego come down that has utvs n here in the imperial valley. it could b fun 2 have races like that in our backyard here in superstition mountains n plaster city.[smilie=jumping.gif]

Tonico
11-09-2009, 07:40 AM
EVERYBODY
As it was mentioned before I would like to have a "exploratory expedition" to look at potential track routes up in the Barstow area.
This will probably happen on December 6. There is a MORE race on December 5.
We will probably get together at the Slash X.
Time TBA.
Let see a count of hands
Tony
Mojave Racing Minis

TutTech
11-09-2009, 09:49 AM
My wife Pepper and I will be there for sure count us in.
Just tell us what time and we will meet you at Slash X.

Sounds good and that will be a lot of fun to go exploring for tracks.. cool.
;)

r6eric
11-09-2009, 11:25 PM
going to dumont for thanksgiving and if i dont break nothing i will be there on dec 6 so count me in.

eric

diirk
11-10-2009, 08:29 AM
I'm not sure if we'll have our car done by then, but we might be able to make it out.

TutTech
11-10-2009, 10:02 AM
I don't think you will have to have the car, actually probably the rhino would work better.
It is for scouting a couple of good courses that we can run that is different probably for the first one it sounds like smaller would be best.
At least on the first race to let everyone run just a single pits in the middle of the course to work on cars etc. and that way everyone can group up. Something around the 10 or so mile would be ideal I would think.. maybe 15 at most. Just what I was thinking. A 15 mile loop will take most people 30 minutes to get around and more for the really stock vehicles.
So if we all pit in the middle we all should see our cars come around every 30 minutes. People will get a chance to see us more, know were ok, be able to do quick pit checks each lap etc.
I would say 10 to 15 miles is ideal for so many reasons especially the first race.

So this is just to meet up with Tonico and help him by giving him our input on where and what course we want to run. Then by actualy being out there we can drive the courses and try them and check them out to see if the minis will be able to run them or not and to see what works or does not.
Remember just starting out we will not have pit b and c etc. like you see at MORE and other racing.
As this will be small and new a single A main is most likely all we will get. So keep the track smaller and so everyone can use a main and help each other out would be the best in my opinion on a first race starter.
Then once everyone knows and sees what they are in for then push out a few miles maybe on the next race. Heck if people even want to. If not keep them smaller and more so people watching can see you more often and feel more action then just sitting and waiting and not knowing.

Also a lot of people probably won't have radios etc. so a smaller loop will help what chase crews we have to find people and help people.

With most people racing in vehicles the size of your rhino that I think would be ideal to bring out to drive the courses to see what you think?

Either way hope to see everyone there so we can get more input and so I can meet up with some of you as we have talked about meeting and never have yet.
Again buggies or not bring a truck, jeep, rhino etc. and come out. Bring whatever you have to go check out courses on or in.
;)

Tonico
11-10-2009, 07:05 PM
If the track is kept relatively small CBs can work. I used one the second race that I did. It got interesting. The "civilians" caught on from the communication that I was in a race car and started offering to "relay" if I got out of range from my pit. Some were just thrilled to death that they could help. Heck even the cheapy walkie talkies may work. Than I lost my antenna... :-( Than I rolled while backing up down a hills because my gear linkage ad re-kitted it self and was stuck in second gear... at the bottom of a hill. How I rolled is just embarassing. I look up and there's the Weatherman him self. walked up the hill and spent a pleasant 8 hours trying to guide my chase crew to my location using a CB.... Problem was they were consuming more beer than gas...
Tony

elmariachi
11-10-2009, 10:03 PM
Something around the 10 or so mile would be ideal I would think.. maybe 15 at most. Just what I was thinking. A 15 mile loop will take most people 30 minutes to get around and more for the really stock vehicles.
So if we all pit in the middle we all should see our cars come around every 30 minutes. People will get a chance to see us more, know were ok, be able to do quick pit checks each lap etc.
I would say 10 to 15 miles is ideal for so many reasons especially the first race.

As this will be small and new a single A main is most likely all we will get. So keep the track smaller and so everyone can use a main and help each other out would be the best in my opinion on a first race starter.

Also a lot of people probably won't have radios etc. so a smaller loop will help what chase crews we have to find people and help people.



I think 15 to 20 miles max would be good - at least for the first race. Might want to get FAIR Pits involved so they can offer one remote pit for all competitors. Remote pit could be at the mid-point of the race. You'll also need check points to catch the cheaters [smilie=icon_razz2.: . Put these in areas so racers can't take creative lines or cut sections. DRIVE has a good idea of having racers go through "gates". Miss the gate and you've missed the check-point [smilie=alright.gif] .

Count me in for the course recon. :)

Tonico
11-11-2009, 06:51 AM
The smaller the track is the easier it is to verify that sort of thing. Plus there is a chance of getting into trouble with the BLM over that. So, yes there will be ways to make sure that cheaters will be dealt with.
Tony

TutTech
11-11-2009, 11:24 AM
If you make a small enough circle then leaving the course to try to cut would actualy cause you to back track and go down roads, over hills and across desert terrain worse then the track etc. then to just go around the loop and be done.
Also if you cut on a small enough loop you will cut across and end up back at start finish.. and uhm people would see you coming across the desert on a smaller loop and not down the course... :o
You can set up a pretty good circle where cheating is more difficult then just running the course.
Smaller means less chance and less road crossings, less help needed and lower cost also.
I agree with smaller cars and a first race something like 10 to 15 is what I would think of doing
to keep everything well smaller.

With a lower car count probably showing to a first event you can probably be safe with a first time smaller loop and then adjust it depending on how many people pre enter etc. for up coming events.

The smaller loops will work good with the cbs etc and like you said maybe hand helds?
(to bad about your roll over.. funny story.. he he. :D )

Not sure about fair they have some pretty long guide lines and I don't see the minis fitting much of them. Not sure maybe? Someone on here belong to fair? You have to trade work and work for them also to get them to come out. Or you need to pay them. That is about the only two ways.
I think if we go small enough and everyone pits together we will have a good pit row withing walking distance of everyone to get parts or help to keep racing all day. Plenty of people I am sure will help out and lend a hand towing people in and helping out.
Talking to the people on this site I know they are great people and would all lend a hand to help one another out no problem!
Like I said before I will bring spare stuff and welder, grinder etc. type of gear to make repairs with and help everyone who wants it to help them keep running. Yes even if your racing against me and kick my butt because of it. That is just good sportsmanship and that is what I am all about. ;)

Well cool nice to see more and more people wanting to make this happen.. boy I'm excited.
[smilie=jumping.gif]

Tonico
11-14-2009, 07:01 AM
As far as the "expedition" goes how does 9AM sound?

Tony

fl250driver
11-29-2009, 02:59 PM
hey guys,
what classes are you going to have for this series?
if there is a class that i could get into on a budget maybe i can ditch the fl250 and get a new mini to run with you guys.

Tonico
11-29-2009, 05:33 PM
Planned classes:

UTV Stock - Bone Stock as delievered by manufactturer
UTV Mod - Base stock with all sort of mods, stock chassis mods allowed
UTV Open - Just about everything goes within wheelbase restriction. All tube chassis and up to 1200cc engine. (no automotive)

Buggy Light - Up to 90" wheelbase, eng 500cc 2-stroke/800cc 4-stroke
Mini Buggy - Up to 100" wheelbase, 1000cc m/c engine
Open Buggy - up tp 110" wheelbase, 1200cc m/c engine
3K - Up to 103" wheelbase, automotive engine up to 2,400cc
Trophy Kart Elite - Not sure if I am having this one.

EVERYBODY
We are getting together this Sunday, the 6th, at the Slash-X cafe start/finish at 9am. I have thrown together a whip flag for my buggy with my Avatar (white on black). Look for it.
I will have a few copies of the rule book which even though not complete should give you a good idea where I am going with this.
You do not have to bring your race vehicle. Anything that you feel confident with out in the desert will be fine.
Tony

fl250driver
11-29-2009, 07:28 PM
can a china buggy with a few mods be race legal?
window nets, fire extinwishers ect.?
there is a big mini china buggy scene in so cal just ask Tut, he went to their bash, im sure you could get a lot of their interest and support.
if there is a china buggy class, me and my brother would try to make it out with his roketa 250

Gene
11-29-2009, 07:34 PM
I don't know if a China buggy would pass tech inspection. Neither of my home built cars would because they are not built to the rules. That's key.

fl250driver
11-29-2009, 07:56 PM
the china buggys probably wont be able to but if a class is made for them we might have a chance. over at buggynews.com they have a ton of members in so cal that are always out riding so they could bring in some numbers for the race. plus the china buggys are cheap so just about anyone can get in one on a budget.
for the china buggy class maybe just some simple rules like
-window nets
-one fire extingwisher, must cover all types of fires
-5 point harnesses
-engine shutoff
-fully welded roll cage

again i really think there are a lot of china buggys in so cal and im sure a lot of them would be interested in racing

Tonico
11-30-2009, 05:12 AM
The only thing that I see that maybe an issue with China buggies would be that they are usually under powered in comparison with other mini buggies of the same wheelbase.
They would fit in the existing classes, provided that they meet all the safety requirements.
Now if I see a regular entry of 10 or more, I would probably create their own class.
Tony

TutTech
11-30-2009, 09:55 AM
fl250 the little bigger china buggies could be set up to pass tech with out anymore work then a normal buggy.. Several of the guys already did motor swaps even and a few had up to like 500 or even 600cc motors installed in them. Heck one guy had a 900cc and all new suspension etc. Very nice and you could never guess it was china built anymore with all the upgrades and cageing etc. he added and redid.

I would just add in the proper cross bracing, mid rail bars and make your buggy legal and then install the safety gear and run it. It is not unsafe or automatically of need to be in a seperate class. They just are more for fun and not racing. Plenty of Sand cars or minis are that way. You just need to add in the proper safety bars, equipment etc. and who cares where it came from.
If you fix it up and make it legal and safe run it in one of the 3 classes based on wheel base and motor and have fun.
;)

As you said I saw a couple guys who took their buggies and upgraded them. Improved cages, safety gear and even bigger motors. Those guys buggies were so much safer and nicer you could not tell they were china made. Heck one of the kits you build with plans you buy you will still have to add all the safety and race upgrades to them too.

After seeing some of their buggies in my opinion I don't think you or them need your own class by the time you upgrade you are no longer a china buggy but an actual race car now and so why would you want to race in a china class? After upgrades run whichever class you want that Tonico already has. If not then ok work it out with Tonico and he said If you get 10 china cars he would open a class for them. So there you go too.

Let me know maybe I can help you out? Not sure about motor swaps etc. but as for adding in the proper cage bars and protection so you can race it let me know.
;):)

Sheesh I need to get a head a little bit so I can build my car.. well we have a little time so it will all come together I am sure just in time for me to race. :)
Now which class do I want to race in??? :D

fl250driver
11-30-2009, 06:52 PM
thanks for the replys.
for now my interest in the china buggy is for the support of the new race organization, i am only turning 15 in january so still another year and a month till i am 16 which most organizations require you to be...
but anyways, do you mind if i post a link to this thread over at buggynews.com to see if some of the china guys would be interested?
and tut how much would you charge (with materials) for you to build a custom cage for my fl250 and add some to my brothers roketa?

Tonico
11-30-2009, 06:52 PM
There is also the question "what is a china buggy". I am fairly certain that most are thinking a 250cc, two seater. But, there are those that maybe thinking about the larger ones that are getting close to 1000cc at twice to three times the price.
So how much is a budget priced buggy?
Tony

fl250driver
11-30-2009, 07:07 PM
i was thinking you can pick up a 250cc buggy for about 1,000 to 1,500 some even below 1 gran, then sink some $$$ in for roll cage supports, window nets, harness ect. and have a race buggy for about 3gs or less.
if i were to race my fl250 i bought it for 450, sunk about 100 bucks in for repairs, i could put another 1500 in for safety stuff and have a race ready(more like roll read with no rear suspension [smilie=ecstatic.gi:) buggy for about 2 gran.

fl250driver
11-30-2009, 07:08 PM
also can i put a link to this thread on buggynews.com ? its another mini buggy forum to get some support for your series

Tonico
12-01-2009, 06:23 AM
Sure
Tony

TutTech
12-01-2009, 10:54 AM
When I think of china buggies I think of most of all of these guys here:
DeserToys Buggies (http://www.desertoys.com/gokarts.html)

If you take a look at that link to the buggies those are china buggies.
Plus Joyner comes up as China buggies also yet they have some big motors now. Shoot you may even be able to get one with an ecotech last I heard.
But still chims in as a china buggy to me.

Many other cars too. I don't think people should get hung up on china buggy, kit or a buggy built from plans or econo do it yourself buggy built in garage etc.
The buggy must pass tech, needs a motor within the size restriction to race in that class and wheel base max for that class also.
The rest is sort of open. Who cares where it came from, who cares who built it. All that really matters is, is it safe and will it pass tech? Does it have all the safety gear and a safe enough cage to race?
If you have a smaller size motor then max allowed that is your choice. If you have a smaller wheel base then allowed again your choice.. you just can not go over max sizes.

I guess my thinking is that people should not focus on or get caught up on where the buggy comes from or how it came about. Focus should just be on is it now safe to race and which class will it race in based on classes and its size and motor.

With the 3 classes Tonico has established they can fit into and race within those 3 no problem with the correct safety caging added and safey gear added they should fit into say the buggy lite easy enough.
Same goes for a kit buggy or a buggy your building from some plans you bought, just include the correct safety caging and safety gear and your all set.

That is my thinking. Some of those buggies are so cheap and you can find them for sale etc. that you can probably upgrade one for not to much. But parts may be hard to find and I know they are kinda cheap and parts are usually well made cheap too and kind of small for racing. I see a ton of them brake from just playing in them let alone racing one. So my ownly gripe would be that you invest all the time and money to make one safe and race ready and the parts brake and let you down and take the fun out of racing it. Just something to think on. You may be better off building your own buggy by the time your done you may spend a little more but have a much stronger/safer car. Probably. ;)

Fl250 send me a pm and lets see what we can do for you.
;)

fl250driver
12-01-2009, 08:41 PM
just posted this up at buggynews and already some interest!
this series is hopefully going to take off and be a big orginization! :D

r6eric
12-02-2009, 05:56 PM
hello guys
are we meeting a slash x and unloading or are we meeting in the riding area of stoodard well road and driving in. looking forward to meeting u all and i did break at dumont buggie wont go into gear so got to take apart and see what happen atleast it broke on the last day.
eric

TutTech
12-03-2009, 11:11 AM
Im going to be pitted over at the course. So your welcome to come over to me.
I am down stoddard road between it and the powerline road.. just at the end of the fence make a slight right and you will find me. You can park there and unload etc. so all of our stuff is in one spot.

Then we can drive up and meet at Slash X or if everyone just meets up at the track as that is where we are looking anyways that can work. But we will find everyone by 9am and start exploring.

Sorry about your buggy and ya good thing it was on the last day.. hope you get it fixed.
;)

Tonico
12-03-2009, 06:17 PM
Stoddard Wells or Stoddard Valley?? We will be playing traffic cops on mile 9 on Stoddard Wells (top loop).
That could work.
Tony

r6eric
12-04-2009, 06:01 AM
sorry guys just want to make sure i go to the right spot. tut ur going to be off of highway 247(barstow road) to stoodard road witch is by slash x.
thanks eric

Jojano1
12-04-2009, 10:05 AM
This looks like an awesome series. I'd love to join. I know most of the china buggy's will be needing special modifications to the roll cage and suspension but will that hinder there acceptance any?

TutTech
12-04-2009, 12:24 PM
I don't see how? Tell me how a guy who has never built a race buggy before or any buggy before is anymore qualified then a company that builds buggies just because there located in China?
I don't know of any China buggies that are desert cars though? So converting and changeing is going to have to be done.

The only big complaint you will here is they break do to cheaply used and made parts, the metal and welds are sometimes not up to standards. This is extreme racing and they will get put to the test.
So everything built must be brought up to a higher safety standard as racing is dangerous.

But now again a person who has never built a buggy at all are they any more prepaired or better at it just because they live here?
No.
All cars will have to pass tech, both fabrication and safety will be a factor as always in racing.
I know people get asked or questioned at tech all the time. New cars are sometimes not allowed to race until certain fabrications are added or done etc.
Not just safety but fabrication is a factor.
You may just need to add bars, correct any problems and I personally would beef up the parts if need be for desert racing so you have a fun day of racing and less chance of braking down.

I think if you fit in the classes and pass the complete tech who cares what the car was before you turned it into a Desert Racing Mini Buggy Just come out and have fun!!
;):D

Jojano1
12-04-2009, 05:11 PM
I remember from seeing your buggy at the buggy bash. The China buggy's would have loads to modify but I'm up to it if the rules and guidelines will allow them. How would we get a hold of this info? And forgive me for not saying it was a pleasure to meet both you and your wife. I'm sure we'll get together again soon enough. I ride Calcity, Spangler hills, Mojave dessert often, huge vast areas for racing;)

Tonico
12-06-2009, 06:31 AM
Tut said it all. It does not really matter where they are made. In fact many of the American high end buggies are made in Mexico.
I can just see someone going to SCORE trying to segregate "Mexican buggies" from the others. Mind you they do have the Baja Challenge cars.
Tony

TutTech
12-06-2009, 08:18 PM
Jojano1,
sorry about missing the ride with you in the morning.. my wife was cleaning up etc. and so we wanted to run down to find the oasis real quick and then we goofed around a bit.. when we came back everyone was out on a ride or gone?
So we headed for home so sorry about that.
:(
And it was very nice meeting both of you too.
;)

I am sure we will meet up many more times for sure.
Your little buggy is fast! That is for sure I saw you in the river bed and you scooted. Nice.
As for rules Tonico is going to have his own rules because SCORE which is one of the largest
off road governing bodies does not allow 1 1/4 size tubing to be used at all. So Tonico is going
to have to write his own rules or at least add a section in to include them.
Also turbos are not allowed but again Tonico is writing in certain rules.

But if you want to know how all your cage must be, window openings, bracing and window nets etc. must be put on you can get a rule book from score if you like.
Here is the link.
http://www.score-international.com/webresources/files/RuleBk.pdf

and their website here
Score International Off Road Racing (http://www.score-international.com/)


Or if you like I can try to help you out the best I can.
Kind of hard to explain stuff on the internet but I am sure I can find photos etc.
Well cool it will be fun if you come race.
Very cool and we did look at some track ideas today and looks very promising for a fun course which everyone in mini buggies and side by sides can do. ;)

If Tonico is up for it I think we found a pretty challanging course that will give everyone a challange but not be to difficult so that way everyone no matter what buggy you are will be able to come race.
Yes this is desert racing and no it is not graded or short course it is rough but with some suspension and a never give up additude you can do it.
Plus you get to go home with an adventure to tell everyone and a since of accomplishment for coming out and doing this.
Plus maybe a trophy if all goes well for you. :D

My friends were able to do the course which was roughly 11 miles in about 25 minutes on a 200cc quad and a 125cc dirt bike.
So should be ok for everyone.
Also almost every part of the track except for small short pieces has 2 and sometimes 3 lanes so everyone can pass or go around etc. and not have to worry about faster cars to much as in just a few yards the track will go back to at least 2 lanes wide. Serious almost the entire 11 miles is 2 lanes wide or more. Less then a half mile total is only a single lane. So again pretty good.

The other good thing is your in a valley so you can use simple hand held radios to make calls back to your pits should you brake down or need anything.
We will set up pits in the center of the course so you are no farther than 3 miles from each end of the track and no more than 2 miles accross the track. So making chasing and getting to you to help you very easy as far as desert racing goes. Plus there are several roads that run accross and along the track making it possible for any pickup truck to drive over to you.

Also for Tonico 1 check point and the start finish is all that is needed to make sure no one cheats.
So less man power and cheaper entry fees for us.

:)

Jojano1
12-06-2009, 09:20 PM
On weekend gatherings like these I'm not expexting much riding just meeting and greeting.

I have incentive from Wes over at Southern Thunder Racing who has a couple of these 800cc buggy's and supposidly does well. No turbo but loads of engine mods + alcohol.

BuggyNews Buggy Forum • View topic - Southern Thunder Motorsports (http://buggynews.com/southern-thunder-motorsports-t15016.html)

TutTech
12-06-2009, 11:23 PM
Wow that little guy looks great! Now that is a little desert car.. closed in sides, B piller with window nets, hood and front and back fire walls. Plus some bigger tires and parts. Sweet.

Basically that is what yours needs to look like.
Very cool.

:)

Tonico
12-09-2009, 07:26 AM
I would like to thank those who came out. I am sorry that I did not get to meet those that were there Saturday.
What is your opinion of the area and proposed track layout?
Thanks to Tut for giving rides in his race buggy.
I am sorry that the weather was not at it's best behavior.
Tony

Tonico
01-03-2010, 06:59 AM
I would like to thank Eric (R6Eric) for taking me around the proposed track. It is the second time I have gone around it and I must say that it was smoother in a stock Rhino than in a Power Wagon the first time around.
Last time I saw Eric and his gang they were heading for the hills.
Eric I hope that you had a good time exploring.
Thanks again
Tony

r6eric
01-03-2010, 04:11 PM
tony i had fun driving you around and hearing your stories, we went looking for the other track its a little rough in some spot and then we got lost and ended up in a mess of hills were we had to use 4wheel drive on my rhino and my nephews polaris but it was fun. then we went back over the track tony made and its going to be a fun track. so my tighten up your chains make sure you got good brakes top off the fuel cell and lets go racing.
see you all soon eric

Tonico
01-03-2010, 05:34 PM
Eric
Wellcome to Stoddard Valley. Getting lost is part of the fun and I am glad you enjoyed it.
There is a MORE race on the 23th. How about some of you guys try to make it there on the 24th morning and we go around the "track".
Tony

r6eric
01-03-2010, 11:43 PM
ill be there tony still havent recieved my clutch plates yet.
eric

turbotexas
01-04-2010, 07:42 PM
This is interesting!!!

Tonico
01-05-2010, 06:06 AM
Hi guys
First I hope you all had a great festive season and you have all got over hangovers, etc.
I have now a proposed track which I have been over twice first with a truck and second with a Stock Rhino followed by a Ranger.
It is almost 10 miles it is relatively easy even with a couple of "technical" sections. This loop has not been approved by the BLM.
MORE has a race on the 23nd and I am hoping to get some of the interested racers to meet at the Slash X area on the 24th
to do a "fun run" around the loop..
If you are interested please send me your private email and I will send you a map of the track.
Tony

r6eric
01-05-2010, 09:59 PM
ill be there tony then after that im taking my buggie apart to powder coat so if anybody knows of a good powdercoat guy let me know and hope to see you guys out there ive been on the track and it will be a fun little track.
eric

TutTech
01-06-2010, 10:13 AM
r6eric, contact my powder coater he is in Corona? Tell him Tut from Tut Tech Racing told you to contact him. His name is Rob. He owns the company. Number is. 1-951-738-1516
Great prices and tons of colors to choose from. Super nice and fast work.


As for the race I will of course be racing it so if any of you want to come out Saturday and meet me at my pits and watch the race please do so. My wife and I enjoy the company. I will see what I can do for Sunday and if the car is running will for sure do the fun run. Thanks.

:)

r6eric
01-06-2010, 08:19 PM
thanks tut
is there room to camp next to you and thanks for the powder coating guy i will call him after we meet up on the 24th
eric

TutTech
01-08-2010, 12:06 PM
Ya of course there is room.. we back our trailer up to the course to drop the back ramp to get to the tools etc. Then you can camp in front of us all the way into the desert etc. Always room some where for people to pull in and camp etc. We are camping off of the Outlet Centers for the race though. Then in the morning we will drive over to slash X and meet up on sunday.. if the car is ok. ;)

Your welcome for the info and I hope we get to meet at the race.
Sorry I missed you when you just went out.
:(


Tonico... what time on Sunday? And do you want to meet at Sunday at Slash X?
I am taking off work hopefully to be there and if the car is still running after the race want to go and meet up and do a quick lap.. if I am not to soar also.. ha ha... :D

Tonico
01-08-2010, 05:37 PM
You need to stop saying "if the car is still running". You're gonna jinx yourself.... It sounds like we will not have to hold up traffic for quite as long for you guys...
I was thinking about 9 am at Slash X.
Jim gave us the usuall crossing which this time is between miles 20-21.
Tony

r6eric
01-11-2010, 09:28 PM
yahoo got my clutches today and will install them friday,i got barnett clutches kevlar hope they work well?
r6eric

Tonico
01-12-2010, 07:24 AM
How long did that that? Glad to read that you finally got them. That is one thing that really gets to me about using bike engines. The average counter hand has no clue what they are doing and it seems that hey never have what you need and it takes for ever to get the parts.
Tony

TutTech
01-12-2010, 09:02 AM
Racing is racing... you run hard you break stuff!
Trust me I brake stuff... oh and Pepper (my wife) runs harder and so therefore breaks more stuff then me. She is faster and does better that is why she is the driver though. ;):D

So no jinxing it jus happens.. so I say it out of pure truth. I want to be there and want to try to even give rides again etc. But if something happens then it usually means I head home and work on her instead of staying thats all.
Also with work we are busy and so work can be hard to get so I need to stay and work so I may have to go in and may not get the day off.
Anyways a lot just is open but I myself want to and therefore will try to be there.
9 oclock it is. Cool just in time for breakfast.. sweet.
:D

Oh and you will know if I made it as you cant miss my brite red race car with my name on it will be parked out front of the restaurant. :D:D

Tonico
01-12-2010, 06:12 PM
I have been following this.... All of a sudden the 1000 does not seem to be so tough.... :-)
Stage 11 | McRae ProDakar Buggy 2010 Dakar (http://www.mcraebuggy.com/category/stage-11/)
Tony

r6eric
01-17-2010, 09:01 AM
hey guys
are we still meeting over at slash x on sunday morning at 9am.
eric

Tonico
01-17-2010, 09:08 AM
Well... yes....Weather permitting. I will be at the crossing for the race and Tut will be racing. Regardless of weather I will stay over on Sunday to Slash X. If the weather is too bad we will decide than.
Tony

r6eric
01-27-2010, 05:51 AM
hello there
if anybody feels like taking there buggie out for day the we will be out at slash x on sat.
r6eric

gootjr
01-30-2010, 06:14 PM
Just checking to see how the pre run went. We couldnt make the day we have been very busy. I also saw this over on RaceDezert they are having a class added to a series run at the Lake Elsinore raceway starting next month. Here is a link it seems fairly low key.
New class added to itp spring series - race-dezert.com (http://www.race-dezert.com/forum/showthread.php?t=76658)

Tonico
01-31-2010, 06:39 AM
I am also interested Eric.
I followed Tut last weekend around the route with an additional mile or two. I drove my play buggiy which is a very old frame (15-20 year) with bone stock VW suspention and a very mild 1640cc motor).... It was a blast and I see no reason why most any "mini" or UTV would have much of a problem.

Tony


Just checking to see how the pre run went. We couldnt make the day we have been very busy. I also saw this over on RaceDezert they are having a class added to a series run at the Lake Elsinore raceway starting next month. Here is a link it seems fairly low key.
New class added to itp spring series - race-dezert.com (http://www.race-dezert.com/forum/showthread.php?t=76658)

r6eric
01-31-2010, 09:53 AM
hi tony
mikey and i drove the course except for the hills and i hate hills it was a blast also drove the course tut and them did and it was rough in a little buggie but had fun there was alot of truck and buggies out there practicing.
see you soon eric

Tonico
01-31-2010, 05:23 PM
You did the full race course of 23 miles? Now that must have been a blast. Any idea how long it took?
I worked the crossing between mile 20-21 and I became a very popular guy on the radio reporting rollovers.... One guy that did not roll hit so hard that he landed up with a compression fracture of a vertebra...
The buggy still running fine I take it.
Tony

r6eric
01-31-2010, 11:30 PM
yep the buggie is running fine no problems everytime i stop to wait for the kids i would check my chain and it was fine hopefully i wont have chain problems like everyone else is having, couldnt tell how long it took i had my son and his friend with me so i would get way ahead of them and then stop and wait for them.i did see were you guys were talking about the uneven road sides.i could see how that would hurt if you didnt hit it right probably will be going out there aqain in a couple weeks got to do honeydo's next sat.hope to see some of you out there.
r6eric

andy johs
02-07-2010, 09:34 PM
Hi tony, my name is Andy. I have a mini buggie and would be very interested in your mini desert racing league. My car has a 91"wheel base 61" wide 15" of wheel travel, 2 seat with a 1000cc yamaha apex snow mobile engine 150HP with a CVT transmission. I hope you have a class for me.Keep me up to date with what is going on or let me know if you have another fun day out prerunning, Thanks Andy.

TutTech
02-08-2010, 10:20 AM
Hey Andy welcome to the site.
Looking back over Tony's rules you can race it looks like no worries. It is always up to him but ya you should be fine.

As for Pre running or seeing what the course is like your welcome to meet up with me also I will be at Barstow for my next race on March 20th for sure and can usually run out on a Saturday pretty easily.

Not sure how much you know or are into racing? But If you need any help with rules, tech or safety etc. just let me know.
I am pretty close to you I see. I live just before Victorville in Hesperia.

I can't wait and talking with Tony he is about having fun so this will be a blast as soon as he gets past all the red tape etc. ;)

Your more then welcome to come out and meet up with us and watch a race etc. and hang out in our pits and bring your buggy etc.. Pretty good time is usually had by all that do join us.
:)

Tonico
02-09-2010, 05:53 AM
Hi Andy
I concur with everything that Tut said. It would be great if you came out, Eric is going to be lonely without another mini to play with... :-) I will probably not go out untill the March race. But I have been known to change my mind too, so...
In the rules I do not mention snowmobile engines, I need to tweak them to include these and industrial engines.
Tony

r6eric
02-09-2010, 08:18 PM
hi tut
if this rain keeps up your going to need scuba gear for your next race.just throwing a email out there see how things are going.
eric

r6eric
02-09-2010, 10:14 PM
hi tony
i wasnt alone there was rhino and trophy karts things are faster than i thought even saw lifted golf cart out there plus the big buggies and trucks and a couple of revolts. hey andy were in riverside do you live.
r6eric

TutTech
02-10-2010, 09:59 AM
Actually we had snow and they had to run escorts down the pass to get to work last night.. sheesh.
The dirt roads around my desert are totally washed out and harsh... so I am sure the next race is going to be rough.

If any of you guys want to meet up and watch the race please stop by my pits and get a feel for what takes place in our pits and enjoy the race with my friends etc. Your more then welcome.

Bring your toys and make a weekend out of it if you like and ride the next day also.
Next race is in Barstow on March 20th off of Outlet Center Drive.

If you need any info or help on any of your buggies to get them ready to race and what you will need to do or what you will need to race please contact me.

:)

el diablo
02-10-2010, 10:17 AM
Come out and check out the races!! I did and now I am addicted to it. Tut is very helpful always helping out with whatever questions I've had. It is a good time out there and great to see what is involved getting out there and doing it yourself. Thanks Tut for letting us hang out and learn the ropes!! See you at the next race!

andy johs
02-11-2010, 10:11 PM
Tut -Thanks for the invite to the races. I’m sure I will be there. As far as my racing background goes, raced a couple years in a class 10 car in LaRana and MDR, we also raced a class 1 Truck in MDR; but it as been a while because me and my son ride Motocross most of the time. – Thanks Andy

Tony- Thanks for making sure I can race in your series. I am aware that snowmobile motors are a little unusual even though the only difference between my Apex 1000cc Yamaha snowmobile motor and a Yamaha R1 Street bike motor is that my motor as no gear box. Having had both a street bike power off road car and a snowmobile power off road car, I would say it would be fair to have them in the same class. The bike motor might have a little more advantage because of the gears, but not enough to make me worry about it. Whatever you decide I will not be the one to complain. I will come and race to have fun and not take things to seriously. – Thanks Andy

Eric- I live in a place they call Orange Crest Hills. It is on Van Buren Blvd, between the 91 and 215. Where in Riverside do you live? If you are close by maybe we can meet; I would love to check out your mini buggy. Let me know what’s up, my cell number is (951) 990 – 5720 – Thanks Andy

TutTech
02-12-2010, 10:05 AM
Man small world.. my brother lives off Van Buren and my father used to off of Washington.
Sounds great.. well with your racing background you should be all set... If you do think of anything you might have a question on feel free to contact me.
Whenever you want to come hang out and watch a race feel free to come join our pits and enjoy a race. We like Racing MORE as it is pretty mellow and more fun. My wife is having a blast racing.
I used to race MDR a long time ago in a 12 car. Now we just race for trophies and to get away and have fun.
;)

Another reason I like Tony and his idea of racing.. to have fun. Nothing to serious but grouping like cars together and go have fun. At the end of the day maybe earn a trophy, tell a story and mostly get away for the day and have a great day enjoying your buggy, your friends and having a fun.

:D

r6eric
02-12-2010, 09:11 PM
hi andy
your more than welcome to come over got my buggy apart getting it ready for powder coating got to do some clean up on it want to move cross bar were my feet are a little closer to the front to give me more room to strecth my legs.cut out some welds out and reweld from the guy before me. make a better bracket holding my radiator so i will be busy.for next couple of weekends.
thanks eric

fl250driver
04-04-2010, 12:02 PM
any updates?

xmotorcr
08-02-2010, 06:02 PM
what happened to this series, did interest die?

TutTech
08-09-2010, 10:13 AM
No not totally I am building my car right now.
;)

Tonico is in the process of moving and things are still trying to get worked out behind the scenes.
As it is very difficult to get a new series or event approved or up and going.

I have some ideas and have passed them on to Tonico that would allow us to race with an already sanctioned racing organization if everyone wants I can ask and set that up?
If so it would be something we could start doing now at their next race and would probably be really set by the first of the year for a much more organized class etc. for minis.

The difference that I know Tonico wanted was for sponsors and supporters to step up and help out to help with the cost of the insurance, land use fees for blm, course workers flagging road crossing etc., the computer trackers/workers, restrooms, set up, take down of mile markers and cautions and then clean up etc. after the race of trash. Wow a lot of stuff you have to pay for and cover to race in the desert that I don't think people even know of.

So these things have to be paid for and included in the entry fee of each race car to cover the cost of racing. The basic class is 200 to enter.
Then pro classes put in anywhere from an extra 160 to 260 dollars for cash prizes and pay back.
So they pay 360 to 460 to race.

As a first time class and probably only a few entries at first I would suggest keeping it sportsman and trophies only for now.
This brings the entry fee to 200 to race. It is a little high for now but if we can get some sponsors on board to help out this class to say sponsor the insurace, blm fees something? that would bring the entry fee down and more people could afford to race.

We would have to run in the sportsman class with other cars but I think we can be divided into our own group. I will check but basically in sportsman you may take 5th in the class but first in your group for example. Like first mini buggy. So you would receive the 1st place trophy for mini buggies. But nothing for sportsman. You would be in a sub section of that class. Hope that makes since.
It is not until you have 5 cars in class on a regular bases that a seperate class will be formed just for your class. So later we could see this happening.
Right now sporstman buggies have 2 classes already. V-8s and v-4s our groups in the sportsman class. So I think we can add Motorcycle engines to that class and have another group of cars running in it. Or something along those lines.

Then we set up our own rules and how many miles we want to race just like all the other classes.
Do we want to do 1/4 of the total distance, 1/2, 3/4 or all of it? This would be something we as a class can work on and vote on.

Also if we can get some sponsors on board we can get lower entry fees, prizes maybe? But mostly I could see this class taking off.
But for now we have to start somewhere and I at least have figured out a way to do so. It is not the cheapest way but it is a way.

If you guys want hit me up and I will talk to Tonico and we can talk to the organization about it.
I know of a couple organizations that may allow this.. their prices are exactly the same so either way whichever allows it is the one we go with. So I think we can get in one way or another.

Thanks,
Tut.
:)

xmotorcr
08-09-2010, 11:49 PM
tut, i approached MDR and the utv class drivers they said i can race in there class in my Redline Revolt. my issue i'm afraid of is that if i happen to place really well in the class they might protest me, saying my car doesn't have 2 seats, no passenger, and doesn't have a factory bed. I've emailed jim @ MORE and he said he didn't want that small of a vehicle racing with the bigger cars, i was trying to get utv's and the mini buggies allowed.

the rules at that time were similar to the rules we use in short course now.

i would possibly be interested in racing the next race in sept and i have no problem with doing like you said and start with the sportsman 4cyl. ALSO I WOULD BE WILLING TO RUN 1/2 THE LAPS


please email me your findings
thanks,
jerry
xmotorcr at yahoo

pride_in_motion
08-10-2010, 01:44 AM
I am very interested in helping to get this series off the ground no matter how you do it. Me and XMOTO tried to get a new series started and ran into pretty much the same thing. Our secondary plan is exactly what you are suggesting. We really wanted to either run on Sunday or maybe after the main race or before depending on the situation. Another idea would be to share the start finish but have a shorter loop with our own volunteers to man the check points road crossing etc. This would help minimize the chance of a truck smashing a desert lite type vehicle in the dust. An advantage of all of this is making it easy for a new series to start by taking advantage of an existing series for insurance permits etc. while still allowing for a level of independance, they get entry money you get a place to race and a chance to promote the class/series and generate sponsors for prize money etc. I think you need a different inner loop or start time/day in order to encourage a ton of closer to stock rhinos who would race a series like this. Let me know if I can be of any help.

Todd

TutTech
08-10-2010, 10:17 AM
That is exactly what I was thinking and running with MDR in the rhino class is a start. We can at least race the next race. IF you win.. good chance of it.. but IF you win they will probably start saying you should get your own class.
That is actually a good thing as it would help push the minis into their own class and help us to get MDR to open a new class.
I have talked to them and they so to start a class they want 5 in it to make it official.
So we will have to work on that.

As for MORE a little different. Depending on what Jim says they are now racing the Lucas Trophy Kart series at the races now. What is cool with this is we could possible enter into that as a new class and get a larger course or use a section of the actual race course maybe a smaller loop etc. so less check points, road crossings etc. to cover. Then we run when the Trophy Karts run but on our own track??
Considering this is already a new event it may be something we can do.

Next thing.
As for the smaller Revolts and smaller mini buggies racing sportsman MOREs insurance says they won't cover motorcycles or SXS as they are to dangerous. So the insurance is to expensive and they don't want to cover it anyways.
So we get grouped in with them. If your mini is too mini then ya MORE is not on board with you being on the course at the same time and insurance is not available anyways.
This could be a set back for MORE but I see MDR running SXS's so if you didn't want to run with the SXS's I was thinking of asking about running within the sportsman group and that way the SXS's cant complain. We ask to do our own amount of laps though and get our own records for who finished first with a motorcycle engine etc.

I am sure we can work around getting allowed into a current organization it is just the cost was a bit to high for a lot of the people I spoke to and they were hoping for more like 100 dollars or less.
So 200 is a bit more then most wanted.

Do you know how much does MDR charge for the UTV or SXS class to race?
If it is cheaper then lets do it and race mdr for now and once we get 5 cars move into our own class and I am sure by then they will want us out anyways.. ha ha.

PM, email or contact me anytime about this.
I don't do much with mdr but I am sure that is probably a great option.
I can contact MORE and see about running the minis at the same time or whenever they run the Trophy Karts and see if they are ok with that as we would not be on the track with the big cars?

Thanks for the input and Im like you guys I just want to race and see this mini series take off. I am sure if we show we are serious others will come out and then sponsors will support us.
:)


EDIT:
Letter sent to MORE to see what they would allow or approve of for minis to race.
I will keep everyone posted on the responce. Even if it is racing before or after the main race I would be ok with I told them. We are open to just about anything to allow this to happen I said.
Will see.

pride_in_motion
08-10-2010, 12:59 PM
For me I like the idea of running on a different day like they do with the TK in MORE. The rhinos run some good lap times, but not everyone has a full race rhino so getting the course without having to dodge a 1450 truck would be better for closer to stock rhinos. I used to race LA RANA in a lite and passed more than got passed against the bigger cars but we had maybe 5 at most racing. I can see if we get the entry fee lower tons of rhinos mini buggies and old desertlites/mini mags running this series. To get a series on board with letting us run with them we need to bring as much to the table as possible, course volunteers, our own tech inspector to enforce class rules. In the end what would get a series to let us in the door would be more entries with fewer headaches. On a different note, I used to race a series in the Barstow area called ARA we raced on sundays, 25 mile loops ATC/QUADS in the morning ODY/LITES after the atc's cleared the course. We would line up over 50 lites and do a bomb run start... Trophies and finisher pins only, and it was the most fun I ever had in a race car.

xmotorcr
08-10-2010, 04:36 PM
i've talked with Art from Art's tech and we can race with mdr. i'm running the november race(barstow 250) in the utv class with my redline.

TutTech
08-11-2010, 09:17 AM
Wow that sounds awesome.. and dang 50! lites all running that would have been awesome to see.
I only saw them in the stadiums. Out in the desert I saw the Mini Mags and some Drakarts. As they are bigger and the longer wheel base etc. helps out.

I like everything you guys have said and I am sure ARTS tech and safety would have no problem inforcing the rules that we establish. Plus Art knows all the standard rules and safety that the promotors need to get insurance and for being safe.

I received good news from MORE if we do want to go forward with them here is the info:
MORE wants your buggy to pass tech by ARTS tech and safety to be able to race. The minis will start halfway into the race and run half the distance of the race or less. This way most of the class 1 cars will be done, faster cars will be finishing and several people will be broke down and off the course when we start so less chances of us or others having an accident. Seems reasonable.

That is about the main info so far and if people are ok with this we can work out the final details. Like entry fees etc. So let me know?
I am meeting to talk to him in person at the next race to discuss this in person.
If you have questions or comments you want me to ask or bring up please fill free to send me them and I will get answers for you.
Either here or at my email. tutcote@yahoo.com

Well cool at least we can make it happen. Plus this will be our own class. We will not be racing with Rhinos or other vehicles this class is considered a buggy class for insurance etc. and we will just be the mini buggy class.
(Or a class name we all agree with)
That means our own class points, trophies, sponsors etc. all can be brought on board. I like this. It also will show people our results, who raced, how many and how we did.
I think that will incourage others to come out and race as we will not get lost into other classes.

I don't mind also racing mdr or other organizations either. Actually I would prefer it as I can keep my racing going with my wife and her car at MORE and race my mini at another organization.
So I am open for anything I just want to race. I would love to get a few of us racing by the end of the year so we can kick off next season as a full blown race season for points etc.

Well cool keep me posted and hmm I would say I would try to make the mdr race in nov. but I am going to the baja 1000 and chasing and racing with our buddies in their 11 car so don't think I can make both events in the same month so close together and still building the mini as we speak... :(
Darn

r6eric
08-12-2010, 10:35 PM
well i better get my car put back together sounds fun to me let me know.

TutTech
08-13-2010, 08:45 AM
I like this idea pride_in_motion
Alta Vista Events - Official Site - California City, California, USA (http://www.altavistaevents.com/index.html)

You have talked to them. You can see on entry list that mini buggies have raced and they already allow them.
The price is only 55 dollars and then you have to either rent or buy a tracking unit.
They are on different weekends then my racing with my wife so I can run both cars. They currently only race bikes, quads, utvs and mini buggies no big cars so no nerfing etc. This I really like also.

It is not to far and it seems like a great group to race with. Plus reading the entry lists and results I know a few of the people so that is welcoming.

That is my vote to go race with them.
;)

r6eric,
heck ya you better get it done soon because I would like to see a series kick off the first of next year so you better be ready to go racing.
:)

pride_in_motion
08-13-2010, 01:11 PM
Thanks Tut, I spoke to Lou a couple days ago and told him we would be coming out as a group. I had been working with him on a set of rules for the UTV and Mini class back around the end of 2007. That came about because me and XMOTORCR were going through the same red tape that TONICO is or was going through trying to start a desert series for minis. We soon realized that our best bet would be to do something similar to JeepSpeed and form a group, use our set of rules and promote the CLASSES rather than a race or race series. We had a set of rules, a name FORMULA DESERT LITES with two main minibuggy classes FORMULA 800 and FORMULA 1200. Obviously the Formula refers to the open wheel buggy and desert lites is a throwback to when Odysseys were the minibuggy of choice. As far as UTV’s we were going to have two classes STOCK as in safety items only and SUPERSTOCK (BITD RULES) we were going to group the unlimited bike motored rhinos in with FORMULA 1200. When Lou finally got insurance approval, which was no easy task I had a major family issue and was forced to move to Texas. The UTV class in AVE never took off like it could have. I saw some bad posts on it because at first the entry was way higher than it is now and that for a much shorter race than the bikes. When I talked to Lou the other day I just stepped back in as me and XMOTRCR had originally planned and said we have a group and we want to come race in your series. He is excited and wants to see it happen. If we can get more than six entries (which should not be hard as I am going to promote the UTV class under our umbrella as well) He will give us our own course so no worries about mixing two wheels with four. I want people to know that I am not trying to step on TONICO’s toes but will be helping him to get the ball rolling. This will build a group of racers, get some dust on their cars so when Tony does manage to dig his way out of a mountain of red tape we will be waiting on the starting line. What our group will do is make a set of rules that can be used at any existing series be it desert or short course. I have mentioned the ARA series and saw El Mariachi mentioned it in this thread also. That is what I see for this series, low stress, fun competition. I told XMOTO that this needs to be a party with a race thrown in the middle, or we threw a party and a race broke out. I have a few ideas for our group as far as pitting and the like but might start a new thread about this series in particular. I look forward to hearing comments and really hope to see TONICOS input.

pride_in_motion
08-13-2010, 03:33 PM
Here is a few pics of the old ARA series.

TutTech
08-14-2010, 09:54 AM
I agree with everything you just said 100%
I don't see Tonico having any problems as I think he is trying to do something a bit different and your idea as making it a core group like Jeep Speed means just like them they can race MDR, Best in the Desert, MORE etc. because they follow a set of their own rules.

I like it. I am glad AVE is on board. I don't see to big of a problem with us on the course with the bikes as the quads are already and the stock rhinos will not be passing a ton of bikes.
Horns should be mandatory then as well.
The only faster then bike guys is going to be the minis and modified rhinos.. mostly.. don't get me wrong.. but mostly the faster cars. As there will be less of them I am guessing it should be fine especially until numbers grow that we run the same course. Thus making it easier on everyone especially Lou for setting up and allowing us in to race.

I am hoping by next year, Jan 1st to be able to run an entire season with him and will be there.
For now I will be testing only and will make races as I can and what not. My car is only in the first stages of even being built so I have a few months to go.

I think it is awesome, I love those pics and really have wanted to see this take off.
I think rules for now should be pretty flexiable to get people there. Then when you see 5 in a class make it a class and inforce the rules. I think we have a lot of home built buggies out there that will need some give or take to get them to race. If they have to much red tape they won't want to run.
Know what I mean? Then we won't see the numbers an won't make a core group and this will all be for nothing. :(

I suggest you make a new topic. Start promoting and count me in.
Also make the new post and include in it the rules, guide line and info you have so far.
Also link to AVE so people can see where we will be racing. Plus let people know for now no cars.
We won't be racing with Trophy trucks waiting to run you over. We the minis and rhinos will be the biggest cars out there as they are currently only running with bikes and quads. So this is really good in my opinion.

Not sure what I can do to help but seriously I will some how. Also out at the races I will bring a full pit crew, welder, generator, tools etc. so if people are worried they don't have stuff I will be more then happy to lend a hand and be a (Sponsor) of sorts and start by helping pit for all you mini buggy guys.
How about that?
I hope I can grow into more of a sponsor as this takes off and grows and grow also into a true sponsor.

Sounds good.. well I better get outside and get to work on my buggy then!
:D

xmotorcr
08-15-2010, 08:24 PM
i have a perfect single seater for this series if someone wants a jump on having a legal car look in the for sale section

i want to race in the desert so i need 2 seats.especially after last nights accident
http://i43.photobucket.com/albums/e371/SELFMADE922/hand%20controls/100_0379.jpg

TutTech
08-18-2010, 07:14 AM
Xmotorcr,
what buggy are you looking at getting? One of the Revolt two seaters or something new all together?

:)

Very cool Revolt especially with the hand controls too. Nice. Good luck as I can't wait to meet up in the desert and do some racing soon. 2 people are great in the desert especially if you get a flat or need help with something mechanical etc. I love riding with my wife it makes long races really great having two people in the car. They also go by much faster when your both in there talking about the race and helping one another and keeping yourselves pumped up and jamming.
:)