PDA

View Full Version : ProtoDie- ProtoLite 1000 single seat racer



ProtoDie
05-12-2009, 07:09 PM
All right, time to start a thread on this one.

This build is the 3rd generation of our single seat race buggy.

Lots of time in design making tweaks, changes for improved performance and tuning. Mostly more tunable.

This one has a few more inches of head room in the cockpit than our previous buggies.

This is the single seat version we plan on releasing plans for after it is built & tested.

I am building this one for a customer and it will have a 2008 GSXR 1000 in it [smilie=rockout3.gi: plenty of power

Also an RPM gear box 5.4:1 ratio

The rear engine cradle uses the same plates as our new 2 seater, but has a narrower mounting. But pretty much the same.

nuff talk, here are some pics

ProtoDie
05-12-2009, 07:15 PM
more pics

ProtoDie
05-12-2009, 07:18 PM
yup,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,more pics

ProtoDie
05-12-2009, 07:23 PM
you guessed it,,,,,,,,,,,more pics

K-fab
05-12-2009, 07:30 PM
Sweet stuff Jody!

Gene
05-12-2009, 08:01 PM
Looks like it is itching to race off the table. Love the engine cradle. I'd like to do that for my pending single seater using a CBR 1000.

Will you be selling that as a separate component?

ProtoDie
05-12-2009, 08:11 PM
Thanks guys

Gene,
Yes, we will be making the engine cradle available seperate. with a arms and rear wheel uprights
Future pics will show how the RPM gear box is mounted in.
Can't wait to drive this one:D

standfast
05-12-2009, 11:30 PM
I like that gearbox mount. Are you gonna run a input brake on the gearbox?

ProtoDie
05-13-2009, 05:40 AM
Thanks
Not on the upper shaft of the gear box.
I am making rotors that will have the same pattern as the 930 cv's.
They will bolt between the cv & the boot.

Down the road I may run outboard brakes at the wheels, when I go differential and street legal.

The engine cradle plates are slotted and will have turn buckles for the RPM gear box. This can be used as a tensioner and to avoid half links when changing sprocket sizes.
There will also be an idler sprocket chain tensioner on this. Same one we have been using for years.
This will add a quick easy chain tension adjustment.

Bugpac
05-13-2009, 07:35 AM
More HP more chain fatigue, dont forget that, Looks like shes pretty short as is... Car looks good, Seems to have a bit of Sinister look to it almost..

ProtoDie
05-13-2009, 02:32 PM
Yup, I am aware of short chain issues. That is the reason the RPM box is tipped back, to increase the chain length as much as possible.
Looks like the chain will be 38" to 40" long.
The live axle setup was 50"

I would be curious what length chains others are running on their RPM boxes , what is the (short) length to where issues start.



Sinister look?
While I do think Yoshi's look bad ass and are top notch. I do not see much in common other than 4 wheels, motors,,um they are buggies?

Other than a few mods, tweeks ,,,This is the same basic single seat design I have been building & racing and developing for years now.
Shorter nose, taller roll cage, reverse & a bigger motor, are the real changes.
Thanks though.

David M
05-15-2009, 07:41 PM
Looking forward to the release of the plans:D

ProtoDie
05-27-2009, 06:02 AM
time for an update

The engine went in last week, and I also received the RPM gear box.
Seat , steering , and pedal assembly are in.
rear arms were last night, and the front a arms will be in the next 2 days,,,then up on wheels with shocks & steering.


should be up on wheels this week.

then custom fuel cell, exhaust , electrical,,,,& so forth

hope to test drive in 2 weeks

ProtoDie
05-27-2009, 06:06 AM
more pics

ProtoDie
05-27-2009, 06:08 AM
and a couple more

ProtoDie
05-31-2009, 07:56 PM
Alright,,,update time

Front & rear A arms are on
Steering is in
Radiator is mounted

Rack was extended on each side by 4"

ProtoDie
05-31-2009, 08:01 PM
more

standfast
05-31-2009, 11:41 PM
You going to put some kind of radiator guard?

The angles that those a-arms reach at full droop is steep! How much wheel scrub does that create?

ProtoDie
06-01-2009, 04:53 AM
Yes, there will be a guard to protect the radiator.
Vented Aluminum, and then a screen behind that.

see cad pic

Front angles are pretty much the same we have been running with no issues, maybe slightly steeper.

Wheel scrub thru full travel is around 6"
also pretty much the same as we have been running.

Short front a arms on a car this size probably create more wheel scrub than a large center bulkhead car.

How much wheel srcub on did you end up with on your new build?

Bugpac
06-01-2009, 06:38 AM
Looks like with a little force and the bit of play in the suspension you could actually force the top of the spindle and the upper a arm in and make it lock up on itself...

ProtoDie
06-01-2009, 06:56 AM
looks are deceiving.
The upper heim would have to be forced 28 degrees past it's position in full droop to get to a flat line and be able to fold over.

This can not physically happen, because other components would hit 1st.



Yrs of testing is not accomplished by owning something for yrs, You have to run it more than 20 laps 10 times a yr at the local 1/2 mile track. Sitting in the garage does not qualify as testing.

standfast
06-01-2009, 08:37 AM
Yes, there will be a guard to protect the radiator.
Vented Aluminum, and then a screen behind that.

see cad pic

Front angles are pretty much the same we have been running with no issues, maybe slightly steeper.

Wheel scrub thru full travel is around 6"
also pretty much the same as we have been running.

Short front a arms on a car this size probably create more wheel scrub than a large center bulkhead car.

How much wheel srcub on did you end up with on your new build?


I wonder if you get any forward mud sling on the short tracks you race? It may pack up the fan. I like the front guard. That is a clever use of the airflow in that area. I don't think I have seen that setup before. I may have to steal that idea from you in the future. If the rad's are kept safe with guards it should work well. Just another way to keep the COG lower.

I can't remember what my wheel scrub was. I need to check that. I have LONG arms and my lower a-arm pivot is as close to spindle as possible. I think it can be cut down with a taller upright a bit but I am not sure if that applies. I see some cars with a real tall upright. I haven't put it into the computer and seen how it affects everything though. Either way, I think the effects of the wheel scrub might not be noticeable on a car of that weight but I dunno? Whats the car gonna weigh about?

I just noticed your adjustable shock mounts. Thats probably real useful when using airshocks. Pretty cool the way you did that.

ProtoDie
06-01-2009, 08:54 AM
The back of the fire wall has always stayed real clean , even when muddy.

I guess all the dirt is thrown back in the roost.

Our radiator used to be up high behind the motor for air flow.
What it really catches is dirt flow at the track.

We would protect it with screens, so it was ok,,,,,,but that is whay I decided to move it & protect it more.
And like you said COG, and a better/ more open rear view.

I have been real happy with our handling on all kinds of different tracks & sand dunes, so I do not mind the wheel scrub.

The last cars weighed about 900-940 lbs. I was hoping to have this one lighter,,,,,but with the 1000cc & the RPM gear box, I hope to end up around the same weight,,,,,,I will know soon.

With in the next 2 weeks, I hope to scale out the single seater & the 2 seater.
That will be interesting....

250r05
06-03-2009, 04:57 PM
Nice car jody also good artical in sand sports that is a hard mag to find in canada. really like your single seaters

ProtoDie
06-04-2009, 06:08 AM
Thanks, I am real happy with the article they wrote.

millfab313
06-05-2009, 07:42 AM
where is the thread in your two seater version. i will be looking to purchase rather then build my next frame as a starting point in about 6 - 8 months and I love your designs.

ProtoDie
06-05-2009, 10:36 AM
Thank you,
here is the 2 seat thread

http://www.minibuggy.net/forum/projects-progress/10118-protodie-2-seat-mini-buggy-next-build.html

When you are ready, we can set you up with a chassis

TutTech
06-05-2009, 10:38 AM
Very well done. I like it a lot and the motor cradle is awesome!
I like your ideas and really appreciate someone taking the time to set things like that up so others
of us have more options like say purchasing one from you rather than us learning the hard way, testing, failure, test, pass test, improve, upgrade and then finally reach the level you are at.
;) Oh and I almost forgot spend a ton of money for all that testing a long the way.

I like it and the article was very cool and I bought the book the minute I saw you in it.
[smilie=thumbs_up.g:

Keep up the great work and I wish I could meet up with you one day and see your work in person and pick your brain for an afternoon.
;)

K-fab
06-05-2009, 01:23 PM
Jody's work is killer and he's a cool guy to boot.

Pix on the computer just don't do his cars any justice at all. In person the car's extremely sweet looking and I was really surprised at how good they looked. (thought they looked sort of funky in pix).

ProtoDie
06-07-2009, 02:34 PM
Thanks guys.
I always like to meet up with fellow MBN members and throw ideas around and check out other peoples rides.
Lots of different ways to build, that all work.

Yes, my designs are different (funky) than the standard/ classic "dune buggy"

We started designing & building back in 2002/2003, and did not really base our buggies roll cages off anything,,,or anyone other than what we wanted to build & race for ourselves on the home dirt track.
Then it all keeps evolving,,,into the next thing,,,and the next one,,,,like an addiction:D

This new single seater is going to a guy in Oregon City Oregon. So we will have a car out on the West coast. Maybe a few of you guys will be able to check it out . Probably after the 4Th of July.

I may be heading out there with it for a few days,,,,,,to have a look at the BIG sand.

plkracer
06-07-2009, 02:52 PM
Thanks guys.
I always like to meet up with fellow MBN members and throw ideas around and check out other peoples rides.
Lots of different ways to build, that all work.

Yes, my designs are different (funky) than the standard/ classic "dune buggy"

We started designing & building back in 2002/2003, and did not really base our buggies roll cages off anything,,,or anyone other than what we wanted to build & race for ourselves on the home dirt track.
Then it all keeps evolving,,,into the next thing,,,and the next one,,,,like an addiction:D

This new single seater is going to a guy in Oregon City Oregon. So we will have a car out on the West coast. Maybe a few of you guys will be able to check it out . Probably after the 4Th of July.

I may be heading out there with it for a few days,,,,,,to have a look at the BIG sand.

Oooohh, cool. Too bad you can't make it there earlier. I am going the 21st of June. Need to get home so I can paint the Barracuda up, and change out the center shaft before I head out.

ProtoDie
06-08-2009, 02:30 PM
Ya, bummer. It's not for sure yet, but the date would be after the 4Th of July.

ProtoDie
06-12-2009, 07:06 AM
Alright,,,
fuel cell is fabbed & tig welded. 1/8" aluminum
Stock GSXR fuel pump is mounted in the bottom to the plate I machine.
Pics do not show it fully mounted, but it is mounted in the frame now.
Works great.
Roll over vent is mounted right in the gas cap.

Dual exhast with 2 super trapps. 2 1/4" dia to 2" Turbo T then 2" bends to the super trapps

electrical harness is is re-wired , but not finalized.

No F1 codes, everything works nice.
The 07/08 GSXR gages are real nice. I have the A B C power modes working too. Show right in the gages what power mode you are in. Also shows gear position.

Good enough to fire it up.
ya,,, [smilie=rockout3.gi: Motor roared to life yesterday.
Sounds great. It is a quiet low rumble at idle ,,,but just a tap of the throttle & she screams .


I just received the Pingel electric shifter parts yesterday.
Looks pretty nice.
I have a Grant steering wheel with holes for the buttons right in it. I will need to do a little creative work to mount them in, but I think it will be slick when done.

front shocks are mounted also

Alright, here are some pics

ProtoDie
06-12-2009, 07:08 AM
few more

bajaBrothers
06-12-2009, 08:13 AM
That buggy looks awesome. I need to start my single seat project.
That thing is going to fly.
________
Extreme vaporizer (http://vaporizers.net/extreme-vaporizer)

Bullnerd
06-12-2009, 10:19 AM
Is there a bumper to protect the exhaust/suspension?

ProtoDie
06-12-2009, 10:37 AM
Thanks,,,I think it will be fast


Nope, no bumper.
We have been racing these for years,,,,rubbed & bumped, hit & smacked tires.
Never had any issues, or even bent an A arm from hitting.

We still try not to hit each other[smilie=dunno.gif],,,but it happens

Gene
06-12-2009, 04:02 PM
Looks great!

The Kar Audio Guy
06-12-2009, 05:32 PM
wow looks great!! how big is the tube 1.5?

ProtoDie
06-12-2009, 07:10 PM
Thanks guys,
yup 1 1/2" dia
we started with 1 1/2" on our very 1st buggies in 2002/2003

it has held up to our abuse well.
approx roll cage is 100'of tubing

100' of 1 1/2" x .083 is 125.4 lbs
100' of 1 1/4" x .083 is 103.3 lbs

1 1/2 is 22.1 lbs heavier but a heck of a lot stronger

sodman
06-26-2009, 02:19 PM
Hey ProtoDie Just wondering what is the width of your RPM mounting plates? Ive been reading up on arrowheads thread and just thinking is there room for a honda trany in there his width is 10.75 inches between his CV cups. It sounds like it could be a cheaper route to go than an RPM . Just trying to be thrifty not cheap there is a difference
Thanks Sodman

ProtoDie
06-26-2009, 04:41 PM
Without opening my cad files, I beleive it is 8 to 8 1/4" between the cups.

I understand thrifty and am always looking ways to cut cost without compromising quality
There would be a loss of travel in a 70" width by going this route.
You could gain some back by going wider at the wheels.

I agree the RPM gearbox is expensive,,,,,,but from a designer, machinist tool builders point of view,,,,,there are some top notch parts that go into the gearbox . And many years of testing on that box so I am sticking with that route.
Yes ,,,Honda has more time probably testing,,,,but The RPM is designed specifically for the application buggy builders are using it for.


I hope to update all our build threads soon,,,,,,but I have been to busy building and not typing[smilie=dunno.gif]
Hope to share more this weekend,,,,cause we have been busy:D

sodman
06-27-2009, 09:16 AM
Thanks for the quick reponse I'm just seeing what is available out there and what might and might not work. This could be just a pipe dream but I would like to build another buggy in the near future. Had way to much fun putting the first one together so I'm just doing some reseach I really like the look of your cars very sharp
Thanks Sodman

ProtoDie
06-28-2009, 12:18 PM
Thanks Sodman,

here is an update

Shift linkage is in, with the Pingel electric shifter solinoid.

Shift buttons will get mounted in the Grant steering wheel

Reverse linkage is in for the RPM gearbox.

I designed up a locking springloaded shift lever for this set up, works great.

In the back, by the RPM box, I the shift cable mount straight forward with no bends.
Then it is hooked to a pivoting tube with 2 arms welded on.
This is bolted thru the engine cradle plates.
Then a coupler mounts from this to the RPM box shaft arm.

Pretty tight for pictures, but you can see some of it.

Kfabs bell crank set up help inspire this shift setup,,,Thanks

nuff talk, here are some pics

ProtoDie
06-28-2009, 12:21 PM
one more

c.schulz
07-01-2009, 08:09 PM
Keep me posted.


Chris

ProtoDie
07-02-2009, 06:49 AM
Tearing it down for powder coat now, and adding body panel tabs.

Powder coat & body panels next week.

From our test drive with the 2 seater,,,the 1000cc is awsome. I can't wait to drive the single seat racer with that motor in it.

ProtoDie
07-09-2009, 04:21 PM
back from powder,,,,,,kind of a crazy different color.

it is a candy ,,,maroon/purple ish powdercoat

Pictures do not do it justice, it looks real cool up close.

lots of work, but nice to start on final assembly

ErwinBnl
07-09-2009, 05:16 PM
I really like the color!:D

But we'll have to wait until we know if the color is right in combination with the rest..
But i think it does:D

daaboots
07-10-2009, 10:43 AM
Electric shifts!!?! Now thats cool! Will you still have the clutch pedal or with the electric shift do that as well?

ProtoDie
07-10-2009, 05:41 PM
Yes,,,,there is still a clutch pedal, and a manual shift lever.
Clutch is only needed for neutral and to get going.
The buttons control a cylinder that works the shift linkage.

I am also adding an auto shift module. This will let me preset the RPMs I want it to updshift at.
It will kill the motor for a millisecond,,,and shift all the way to the top.
should be fun
Down shift is manual yet, which I prefer to control the down shift.

JG12gauge
07-11-2009, 12:16 AM
looks like a cool project

sodman
07-12-2009, 05:38 PM
Protodie thats a great color looks good in the pics but i'm sure it looks a lot sharper up close. Just wondering what did the bare frame weigh in at and I'm to lazey to go back through the thread 1.5 od .095 tubing right ?
Get that thing back together I can hardly wait to se it done
Later Sodman

ProtoDie
07-13-2009, 05:31 AM
I was in too much of a hurry to weigh out the bare chassis.

I will be getting the full assembly weight when done though.

I am projecting around 900lbs complete

more pics

ProtoDie
07-13-2009, 05:34 AM
few more,,,,,then back to work

odypilots
07-13-2009, 06:43 AM
That's beautiful, Jody. Great work.

sodman
07-13-2009, 02:13 PM
Oh my god it's a thing of beauty Jody When are those plans going to be ready and how much for them count me in for a set of plans when they are ready. I can't beleive that I've taken the itch for another buggy but I have Can't remember the blues artist "Im itchy and I don't know where to scratch"
Anyways nice build Keep the pics coming
Later Sodman

ProtoDie
07-13-2009, 04:36 PM
Thanks guys.

I am real happy on how this one is turning out.


Plans,,,,,,,,someday when I am caught up[smilie=dunno.gif]

I HOPE that is in August Sept,,,,,,,,,but I was hoping for early in the year,,,and it is now half gone.

Lots of R&D on this next generation single seat project,,new motors,,,,reverse,,the 2 seater,,,,and the kids cars.

I need a vacation.

I will be heading out to the west coast to deliver this one in a week or so.

Flying in to Portland on July 22,,,then staying down at Coos Bay just South of Winchester Bay Dunes.
Testing in the dunes on that Friday,,and maybe Saturday.
Then taking a red eye home Sunday night.

If anybody in that area wants to check out the buggy, or meet up for a couple of cold ones,,,contact me & see if we can schedule something.
Jody

email: protodie@protodie.com

bugbite
07-13-2009, 10:45 PM
[smilie=bow.gif]dang jody, your work never ceases to amaze, can't wait to see it finished [smilie=peace.gif]

ProtoDie
07-17-2009, 09:07 PM
Here are some new pics,,,

1st time going with a vinyl wrap graphics.

Kinda like them. If they start to get worn out,,,,just get a new wrap on that panel.

anyhow,,,some of the panels are on, a few to go tomorrow.

Then it is finalize the electronic shifting.

couple more days & this one is done[smilie=ext_hooray.:

ProtoDie
07-17-2009, 09:11 PM
just one more


kids races tomorrow:) so takin a break for the day



many more pics to come

jersdunz
07-18-2009, 10:53 AM
Thanks
Not on the upper shaft of the gear box.
I am making rotors that will have the same pattern as the 930 cv's.
They will bolt between the cv & the boot.

Down the road I may run outboard brakes at the wheels, when I go differential and street legal.

The engine cradle plates are slotted and will have turn buckles for the RPM gear box. This can be used as a tensioner and to avoid half links when changing sprocket sizes.
There will also be an idler sprocket chain tensioner on this. Same one we have been using for years.
This will add a quick easy chain tension adjustment.

whene your running the gear box and two small sprockets do you still get a lot of chain lash?? I just noticed you have an idler in the design I don't ever recall seeing anyone run idlers on the small sprocket setup

ProtoDie
07-18-2009, 05:47 PM
I do a lot of things you probably have never seen before:)

This is a quick easy way to adust for chain stretch, without having to use the rear turn buckles.

It is working well, so needed,,,maybe not , but it sure does work nice.

250r05
07-18-2009, 06:26 PM
what a work of art . i have to say i din't like the color intil i seen the body wrap. looks very sharp.

Bugpac
07-18-2009, 06:38 PM
Brake rotors and cvs touching each other may not be the best idea for a racer, Heat will boil the grease quickly... :)

ProtoDie
07-18-2009, 07:29 PM
Bug,
why always so negative and critical?

A: rotors are 3/8 thick & take a lot of heat before transfering it all the way in to the CV's, especially on a 10" diameter rotor,,,and the calipers are of course at the outer edge of the rotor.

B: there are cooling fins in my rotors,,,and the rotors have never really gotten crazy hot,,,,if they would boil the grease,,the boot would be in trouble to.

C: I barely need to use brakes when I am racing,,,with a shifter motor I use the engine & down shifting to engine brake in the corners

D: if this were the case,,,,with your theory , then I would have been boiling my front wheel hubs & grease a long time ago.
That is a smaller rotor mounted right to the aluminum hub.
Aluminum transfers the heat quicker.

Sorry,,Bug,but I have to question your tag line, cause I have been wondering for quite some time to,,,, what , or who it has referance to?

"Yrs of testing is not accomplished by owning something for yrs, You have to run it more than 20 laps 10 times a yr at the local 1/2 mile track. Sitting in the garage does not qualify as testing. "


Yrs of typing and searching the internet does not give you the same expierence of designing ,building, testing & racing.
Credentials should not be number of posts but number of builds

Sorry [smilie=dunno.gif] but this is meant in good ribbing humor:D

ProtoDie
07-20-2009, 09:00 PM
DaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaMMMMN crazy power & torque.

I weighed it out & 911 lbs with a few gallons of fuel.
So probably 900 dry weight.

Love reverse,,,,,,never had it,,,and I probably will now always have it. Cause it is just handy

Outdoor pics tomorrow, then carte & ship to Oregon.

Took a couple of pics in the shop tonight. I kinda like this one.


enjoy

Gene
07-20-2009, 09:04 PM
I love looking at this car and hope to see it at the Oregon dunes this year.

See you soon!

ProtoDie
07-20-2009, 09:04 PM
few more

ProtoDie
07-20-2009, 09:08 PM
2 more

Thanks Gene,,,,I am really looking forward to visiting the West coast & Oregon this week.

ProtoDie
07-20-2009, 09:14 PM
OH,,,,one with the rear running lights

Bugpac
07-20-2009, 10:30 PM
Bug,
why always so negative and critical?

A: rotors are 3/8 thick & take a lot of heat before transfering it all the way in to the CV's, especially on a 10" diameter rotor,,,and the calipers are of course at the outer edge of the rotor.

B: there are cooling fins in my rotors,,,and the rotors have never really gotten crazy hot,,,,if they would boil the grease,,the boot would be in trouble to.

C: I barely need to use brakes when I am racing,,,with a shifter motor I use the engine & down shifting to engine brake in the corners

D: if this were the case,,,,with your theory , then I would have been boiling my front wheel hubs & grease a long time ago.
That is a smaller rotor mounted right to the aluminum hub.
Aluminum transfers the heat quicker.

Sorry,,Bug,but I have to question your tag line, cause I have been wondering for quite some time to,,,, what , or who it has referance to?

"Yrs of testing is not accomplished by owning something for yrs, You have to run it more than 20 laps 10 times a yr at the local 1/2 mile track. Sitting in the garage does not qualify as testing. "


Yrs of typing and searching the internet does not give you the same expierence of designing ,building, testing & racing.
Credentials should not be number of posts but number of builds

Sorry [smilie=dunno.gif] but this is meant in good ribbing humor:D

I agree 100%, google doesn't make engineers, Common sense separates that breed... I have first hand experience with rotors touching cvs, No shifter tho as you have.. My tag line is meant for all the guys taking the market buy storm, grabbing others cash.. I can name a few...Ill keep to myself tho...Car does look good, don't get me wrong, Hell Drakart made 500 or some cars, they should be perfect, yet I still managed to rip the ass right off it with a little hard use... Anyone can design and build with the proper reading material... :) I got a copy for the garage and my desk...



http://img.infibeam.com/img/4f165133/558/9/9780470409558.jpg

K-fab
07-21-2009, 07:03 AM
I want to learn how to make that paper moose!

ProtoDie
07-21-2009, 08:43 AM
Bug,

sure,,I was just curious.
Your CV-rotor heat issues probably did not involve a rotor 3/8 thick, probably a 3/16" thick.

I am not sure how many people run 3/8" thick rotors,,,other than us?
They are sure heavy.

amazing,,,,Dummy books for everything. Now I have to add a paper pop up book to my library:D

RickS.
07-21-2009, 09:44 AM
I'm curious as to why you would use 3/8 thick rotors on a shifter type racer that doesn't really heat up rotors? Are your front rotors 3/8 also?
I can see using the heavy rotors on a car with a CVT, but I'd be shaving weight wherever possible on a race car.
I have another question regarding your cv axles too.
I asked you this a long time ago and never got a response. You claim that your suspension has near zero plunge on the cv axles. But you still use the long splines that allow the star to slide on them. Why do you use the long splines on a set-up with near zero plunge?
I'm not trying to be critical or pick on your design. I'm only questioning the logic behind the heavy rotors and plunging cv's on the splines.

ProtoDie
07-21-2009, 10:19 AM
Rick,

sorry for not answering you question before, I do recall seeing it.

3/8 rotors,,,,pretty much because we over build everything. In the very 1st cars,years ago,, we had 3/16 rotors and they warped 1/2 way thru the season.
I did not like that:(

So we jumped right up to 3/8 and never had any issues since.

I still prefer durable over light weight. If racing was a full circuit, and there was lots of competition, then I would start shaving more weight, and risk shortening the rotor life.


Axles,,,,,I have never researched shorter splined axles. We just have been using the same kind over the years.

It would be nice to have shorter one with more clearance for angle & travel if possible.

Do you have any source or info on short spline axles?
I would be interested.

I may not be online for the next day or so, I need to pack up & head out of town.

RickS.
07-21-2009, 10:39 AM
I don't use 930's, but you could cut the extra splines off and re groove for the clips. With the long splines there is no way of really knowing what the stars and axle are doing. (they are allowed to slide all over) This can rob you of angle and most likely produces more heat. The axles can get themselves into positions where they foul on the boot flanges, This might not cause a problem, but on many cv's I've dismantled you can see the dents in the flanges where this has been happening. With careful planning and tweaking of your a arm lengths you can eliminate this and get max angles out of the cv's. Doing this should also reduce the heat. IMO

ProtoDie
07-21-2009, 11:24 AM
Rick,
Yes , I do see what you are saying. The next one,(mine) I may try to turn the splines back.
I have added an extra groove in the past, to help control the star.

Seems like I remember one of your posts, to where you like to run your stars out towards the boot? Is this correct, for more angle / clearance?

RickS.
07-21-2009, 12:56 PM
Yes, On a new design I first cycle the suspension dry. I use an old set of boot flanges with the boots removed to study what's happening. By playing with arm lengths,(or using spacers) I force the cv's outboard on the axles. This allows for max angle and also limits the axle's ability to drift. Athough I don't race, I've never seen my cv's get too hot to touch.
I've driven with other guys at Silver Lake who's cv's get extremly hot. IMO that's a sign that something's not right with the set-up. If plunge is minimal and the cv's are working within their angular limits, I don't think they should get smoking hot.

minibajaman
07-21-2009, 01:58 PM
Overall the buggy looks really good, fit and finish is top notch.

My only criticism is the tires look disproportionally small to me. A buggy of that size should be on larger than 22" ATV tires IMO. I realize that larger tires are heavier and maybe not necessary for grip, but it just kinda looks off to me.

Bullnerd
07-21-2009, 04:39 PM
I see it!...did anyone else see it?

If you look just to the right of the car in the last pic,on the floor,its there!

ProtoDie
07-21-2009, 05:32 PM
[smilie=icon_razz2.: sh*t,,,,you seen my dirt pile,,,I should have zoomed in closer.:D

I should have taken some pics of the shop the past few weeks,,,,,clean,,,,,5 hours later I can not find a thing.

I like 22" tire,,,which these are. On my old car they were 20". But that was more of a need for the gear ratio in the live axle setup.

I plan on 24" wheels on mine ,,,when I get back to it.

here are some outdoor pics from today,,,,it is boxed up & heading West now,,,,so I need to sign off & get packing.

ProtoDie
07-21-2009, 05:36 PM
whoops, wrong photo,,,,

Bugpac
07-21-2009, 05:43 PM
I think it is more about weight vs tire, The 2 seater is a good example of weight vs tire IMO, Looks real good, I second the larger tire/wheel combo tho...

Bullnerd
07-21-2009, 06:21 PM
sh*t,,,,you seen my dirt pile,,,I should have zoomed in closer.

HA-HA,I have much more respect for you now that i've seen some debris/dirt on your floor.HA.

Your cars arent my style,but i definately recognize the skills and the time(especially with kids)to pull it off,nice job!

millbilly
07-25-2009, 04:05 PM
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------

Jody's work is killer and he's a cool guy to boot.

Pix on the computer just don't do his cars any justice at all. In person the car's extremely sweet looking and I was really surprised at how good they looked. (thought they looked sort of funky in pix).

millbilly
07-25-2009, 04:10 PM
Tried to add a quote??? Any way.. I saw the proto-lite 1000 on Friday.. K-Fab is right. Its a damn nice car and great work was done from one end to the other. Looked fast and smooth on the sand

sandracer1
07-26-2009, 02:32 AM
Just curious, since weight is such an issue. Why doesn't anyone use chrome moly on frames? Is it the cost factor? I see it in A-arms. Seems you could drop "alot" [smilie=mhihi.gif] of weight.

Gene
07-26-2009, 09:42 AM
Somce people do use all chomo. There is debate about the benefits and the wight difference is relatively low, although there is a difference.

Chromo costs more, requires TIG welding (can be migged with right wire) and some say it must be heat treated, although that's arguable too for what we are doing.

sandracer1
07-28-2009, 08:12 PM
Heat treat chrome moly? never heard of the need. My understanding is chromo is stronger which should allow you to use thinner wall tubing. Am I mistaken? The guys that use it on A-arms, are they heat treating them as a general rule?

millbilly
07-28-2009, 09:01 PM
It depends on how you compaire it. If you have 1010 tubing, Than cromo is a lot stronger. (It's been a long time sence I have look at the diffarance between tube.) If you have 1026-6 and chrmo the same dia. and thickness i.e 1.250 x .083. The chrmo is a little heaver, and a little stronger.
I have seen a 1010 car in a bad roll, go over 4-5 times on clay doing 70+ mph and get tiped over on the wheels and finish the race. The wing didn't look too good though. I have seen a chrmo sprint car go off the track tip over once ,hit a rock and have 6" of frame ripped out.(70 or 80 mph) Every yard sale is diffrent. You should always use "4130 condition N" Chrmo in a frame. I have never seen that mentioned in a thread here??

Bugpac
07-28-2009, 09:09 PM
IMO unless your a very experienced Welder, Chromo is not for you, It is identical in weight, you can just downsize to reduce weight and maintain the same strength.. They say chromo work hardens, thus the need to heat and normalize it I believe...

millbilly
07-28-2009, 09:27 PM
Normalized. 4130 condition N. Is Normalized. (Not a good speller of words) Not going to get in to the debate of the different kind of tube. All ways look for the 4130 cond N on chromolly tube. I have never seen just 4130 on any sprint car frame, 410 to AA single.

boilermaker
07-28-2009, 10:23 PM
That's a good point you have to only build with 4130 n.BUT. After its welded it's not normalized anymore and that's why all the trouble. Because the welding process causes stress the parts or frame or whatever that's welded needs to be normalized again to regain the strength and durability that you were seeking when you spent the big bucks on 4130 in the first place. IMO.

sandracer1
07-29-2009, 10:03 PM
Yeah, I kind of figured if it was not that big of a deal or everyone from NHRA to Nascar would be using it. Was not sure why. Just curious.Thanks

Bugpac
07-29-2009, 10:15 PM
Yeah, I kind of figured if it was not that big of a deal or everyone from NHRA to Nascar would be using it. Was not sure why. Just curious.Thanks

I think they both do use it :)

ProtoDie
08-03-2009, 05:56 PM
Yup,,,,what they said:D

Chromo may be for the more experianced welder who know the Pros & cons to Chromo, and understands the proper techniques for welding it & the pre & post heat treat processes needed to fully utilize it's strength & properties

We have had used & abused mild steel for years & had great luck with it.

MC@ Performance Fab
08-03-2009, 06:15 PM
I have see all these stupid discussions about 4130 and its weldabilty and have never gotten into the frey because its so stupid, THERE IS NO DIFFERANCE IN WELDING 4130 AND MILD STEEL-TIG OR MIG. Also heating with a torch after welding is a great way of making scrap metal. continue

Bugpac
08-03-2009, 06:37 PM
I have see all these stupid discussions about 4130 and its weldabilty and have never gotten into the frey because its so stupid, THERE IS NO DIFFERANCE IN WELDING 4130 AND MILD STEEL-TIG OR MIG. Also heating with a torch after welding is a great way of making scrap metal. continue

Its funny you say that, can you post up sup reading material to back it please, I am all about learning new things...

ProtoDie
08-03-2009, 07:18 PM
Alright time for an update not about the age old discussion of welding mild or chromo.

Trip to Oregon, I will try to condense a week long trip & saga .

I met a bunch of really cool & helpful people out there.
The land is beautiful & the dunes are big & cool (about 65-70 degrees cool)

I reserved an economy car in Portland,,,,but thru a special offer, upgraded to a 2010 Chevy Camaro:D
That was a fun car & it handled great in the mountains


Out there I met a bunch of MBN members including Gene, Arrowhead,Larry, MillBilly, Chris from Oregon motorsports, and a few others.

I went for a ride in the dunes before my buggy showed up in a supercharged subaru. Good fun, big dunes, but a lot of razor backs where we were riding, and it was tough to see them.

next day, the new buggy showed up, and the customer was really excited, and there was ton of interest from others at the dunes.

It was windy & cool but still nice for riding.

I only have a couple of photos in the dunes on my camera, so will need to wait for more pics.
Car was handling the dunes nice, and the GSXR1000 was just screaming across the dunes.
Lots of people coming up to find out what it was, and what motor was in it.

Then,,,,,,,it all went bad.
While drag racing, a line blew off the oil cooler and the customer did not notice until the motor shut down:eek: Yes,,,,F#@K

The steel end of the tube was flared so the clamp & hose would not be able to get past it,,,

Pretty much figure the clamp was not fully tightened during assmbly, and the line was fine for the 20 miles of testing we did before delivery,,,,but yes,,,,F#@K.

Fixed the line, and filled it back up with oil to check it out. There was an intermitent tick and then it went away.
We ran it just a touch more,,,and then the tick became steady. I had the customer shut it down & told him we can not run it anymore.

He did not really hear it, but I did and could not have that:(

So I told him we have to tear into the motor and make sure it is all right, or fix it & make it right.
It was an expensive mistake made by us.......

The customer is still really happy from the seat time he had, and happy knowing I stand behind my product and it will be fixed this week.

So I took the buggy and brought it to Arrowheads place where we took the motor out & took it apart to find a rod bearing was partially gone:(

Luckily the crank was fine, so we were going to replace the bearings on the bottom end.

Still going to have it fixed for a Sand Sports test drive the following week.
Gene and some other MBN members helped to try & track down some parts and local Suzuki dealers,,but nobody stocks these.
Great help & networking from these guys,,,Thanks again for your help & hospitality.
So I could not order them until Monday. So I changed my flight, and rental car to extend my stay.

Parts:
Checked with the dealer on Sunday, and they said if I order on monday, I would have the parts by Tuesday.
I was standing there Monday morning waiting for them to open up.
I stressed the importance to the parts guy that these be next day air and to call me as soon as they came in.

Tuesday parts:
Checked out of the hotel to pick up the parts,,,,,,,,,no parts:(
They screwed up & did not next day air them,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,f@#k
so I checked back in to the hotel

Wednesday parts:
They finally showed up,,,but the counter guy screwed up and only ordered half of the bearings:( F@#K
they are 2 piece bearings and Susuki calls each half a bearing, and he missed that.

So now the parts would not be there until Friday afternoon,,,,,,and we missed the window for the Sand Sports test drive:(

Now I am also out of time & have to get home.

So I am very glad to have met some other builders and great people out there.
Because Arrowhead and Larry are finishing putting the buggy back together.
They are very talented, and great people to know.

So,,,,thanks for reading this long winded saga, and remember that a $2 part or missing something on final inspection can cost you thousands.

ProtoDie
08-03-2009, 07:25 PM
couple more

Gene
08-03-2009, 07:47 PM
Sorry the parts failed to come in. It is a piss poor reflection on customer service and countermand competence.

Great to meet you!

Bugpac
09-03-2009, 01:44 PM
SO did this guy join the forum or what, We want reviews...[smilie=icon_razz2.:

ProtoDie
09-03-2009, 02:38 PM
I do not think he is a member here yet ,,,and it may be another week before any reviews yet.

After spending a small fortune on parts & labor to have the motor fixed out there,,,,,the motor was not fixed.

Leaving me in the same position , with a ticking motor , only lost time & money.
If we could only live on hind site, I would have done everything different from when the oil line clamp failed.

I have shipped a new replacement 2008 GSXR 1000 motor out a week or so ago.

This is to be installed Saturday by a certified Suzuki tech & mechanic that the customer knows.

And if this does not go right, I will fly back out & install it myself.

The ticking motor will be shipped back here to where I can take care of it & get it fixed and put it in my 2 seat buggy.

It has been quite the bank draining saga, but it will be up & tearing around again soon,,,,,I can't wait.

Gene
09-03-2009, 02:47 PM
Wow!

Bad story. Unbelievable support and service.

Gene

Bugpac
09-04-2009, 07:53 PM
I do not think he is a member here yet ,,,and it may be another week before any reviews yet.

After spending a small fortune on parts & labor to have the motor fixed out there,,,,,the motor was not fixed.

Leaving me in the same position , with a ticking motor , only lost time & money.
If we could only live on hind site, I would have done everything different from when the oil line clamp failed.

I have shipped a new replacement 2008 GSXR 1000 motor out a week or so ago.

This is to be installed Saturday by a certified Suzuki tech & mechanic that the customer knows.

And if this does not go right, I will fly back out & install it myself.

The ticking motor will be shipped back here to where I can take care of it & get it fixed and put it in my 2 seat buggy.

It has been quite the bank draining saga, but it will be up & tearing around again soon,,,,,I can't wait.

Sorry to hear that Jody, I had wondered about just rebuilding the lower end... Anyways, glad to hear your getting it taken care of...

TutTech
09-04-2009, 09:18 PM
Oh man I am sorry to hear of all your troubles.. hope it all works out.. Dang.. that is sad news.
Good luck. :(

ProtoDie
09-05-2009, 07:49 AM
Thanks guys.

This long story is actually quite simple.

Oil line / clamp failure = fried motor

Take fried motor out & put new one in,,vroom vroom back to the dunes

Motor is going in today, so hope to have a happy story ending this weekend.

danielswt
09-21-2009, 09:53 AM
i was reading the article in the sand magazine about your cars last night and thinking to myself.... he needs to build a car with a 1000cc in it. i check out your website and BAM there it is!

i missed this whole post somehow but i am really liking what i see. does the 600 and 1000 have the same motor mounts?

sicksand
09-21-2009, 11:28 AM
Your customer service sounds great though,don't find many people out there like that anymore.Word spreads fast with service like that which should help sales also,keep up the good work,,,

ProtoDie
09-21-2009, 02:21 PM
Thanks sicksand, I do the best I can.

danielswt, Thanks
The mounts are slightly different, but that is from a 2000-2005 600 to a 2007 1000.

Not sure if the slight difference was due to the year model changes or the the CC size.
I think in the same year 600 & 1000 may be the same,,,,at least on the back mounts.

If anybody has a 2007-2008 600 and wants to post some mounting dimensions, then I can share the 07/08 dimensions to find out.

plkracer
09-23-2009, 02:03 AM
The 600 and 750 share common mounts. I know the 1000 uses different top mounts on the head. It's not too much different, and I know people who have shoved 1000's into 600 frames without much modification besides making new top mounts.

ProtoDie
11-23-2009, 01:25 PM
I finally added build pics of the single seater to my website for easy referance.

New Page 1 (http://www.protodie.com/PROTOLITE%201000%20SINGLE%20SEAT%20BUGGY%20BUILD%2 0LOG.htm)

This will be the 1st one we release plans on, so the build pics may help for build referance once plans are out.

I have been talking about plans for others to build for a long time now,,,,and everything seems to get in the way of this happening.

This is a large project, with other business going on.

But I am trying to schedule going full time on this in December,,,to have them ready by January.

AtvNut
11-23-2009, 02:15 PM
The new cars look great. I like the 2 seater. Nice improvements everywhere GOOD JOB

millfab313
11-23-2009, 08:17 PM
i just looked at that link and
that thing is just awsome thats all I can even say, nice choice in colors it looks good on that chassis
its never a let down to follow your threads keep up the good work

ProtoDie
11-24-2009, 04:39 AM
Thanks for the kind words guys,
It was almost a shame to cover the chassis with body panels, because the candy color was so interesting.

AtvNut
11-25-2009, 08:38 PM
I need some plumbing supplies can someone shoot me Dan's Work Number so I may call him next week. Thank You

jeepindakotas
11-26-2009, 10:00 AM
I know this a little off subject but what are your dimensions for your buggy. I have to work with size requirements for the trails I'm going to use in South Dakota and your buggy looks like it might meet those requirements.

By the way I think you buggy is just bad a$$. I loved the pics of the build, it gave me a lot of info/design solutions to toss around in the attic.

ProtoDie
11-27-2009, 07:00 AM
Sure, here are some specs, I hope they help

Protolite mini buggy ,design, Fabrication,Racing Michigan (http://www.protodie.com/protolite_racing.html)

70" Wide
114" Long
76" Long Wheel Base
900 lbs Dry Weight
RollCage 0.083" x 1.5" Dia.Tubing
Fox 2.0 Air Shocks (Nitrogen)
15" Travel Front & 14" Travel Rear

jeepindakotas
11-27-2009, 09:06 AM
Thanks, now I have to get all the info from the State on what the dimensions have to be for the 4 wheeler trails.

jeepindakotas
11-27-2009, 08:25 PM
Bad news for me, it looks like the results from State is 50" inches wide. Not good news at all.