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Suspension - Wheels & Tires All things suspension, wheel and tire talk for off-road buggies and sand rails

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Old 12-30-2010, 05:37 PM   #111 (permalink)

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Default Re: My 3-link go-kart rear axle concept

www.rf1mod.com has the 3 link rear end. try looking up trophy kart in general. All the kids trophy karts are running a 3 linked rearend. yes they are basicaly the set up of a quad rear end. these ones though have a billet housing not a swing arm like a quad. They are pretty sweet, and with the housing you can attatch your shocks and links.
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Old 12-30-2010, 10:23 PM   #112 (permalink)

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Default Re: My 3-link go-kart rear axle concept

Quote:
Originally Posted by bdkw1 View Post
Huh? We run over 650HP through a four link without any "Sway". The only 4 links that need a panhard bar are the untriangulated parallel type. Otherwise you would get severe binding.

Due to the theoretical pivot point of the upper links being behind the axle it will "duck walk or rear steer" on articulation above what the change in lengths from the radius that the links swing would suggest. Three links are much better about this............
Sorry for the error I used the parallel 4 link and had the sway. I then switched to double triangulated which does not require a panhard bar you are correct sir! my bad and she ran like stink with no sway or walking in the rear.

Last edited by dirtreaper; 12-30-2010 at 10:27 PM..
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Old 03-01-2012, 11:35 PM   #113 (permalink)

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Default Re: My 3-link go-kart rear axle concept

Its so simple its rediculous!
Curvy things are bent tubes,welded to flanges/plates that hold flange bearings/shocks/lower link hiems/sway bar hiems(not shown).Another "plate" goes down between the sprocket and disc and holds a third flange bearing/caliper/chain guide(not shown,but like a dirt bike).Upper link attaches to top tube.




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Originally Posted by TALON View Post
did you use a special bigfoot camera or something ,you know all blurry could be a tree stump kinda thing .

Last edited by Bullnerd; 03-02-2012 at 01:44 AM..
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Old 03-08-2012, 01:31 AM   #114 (permalink)

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Default Re: My 3-link go-kart rear axle concept

Wow,
Where to start. Having started the evolution of the TrophyKart running a Comet CVT belt system under high load and pressures, my own personal opinion would be that the belt would be prone glazing from overheating, causing the edges to dry out, and under the twisting articulation would eventually break the internal cording. If the belt didn't jump the lip of the pulley and fly off at some point before the internal cord breakage. Landing from a jump on the gas will also put tremendous loads on the belt, as spinning tires in the air connecting and hooking up as they plant themselves back onto the ground will send a shock wave through the belt and will probably snap after a few hard landings.

A word on three links, they are prone to breakage by blowing the spherical bearings out of the race, or breaking loose the jam nut due to the higher misalignment angles on the single rod end, or their inherent bind issues. They are more complicated to make than a triangulated 4-link, and have much less tun-ability than a properly set up 4-link. The only reason that people started building off road rear ends with a 3 link setup was to cut the cost down by eliminating $200 in an alloy 3 piece rod end, high misalignment spacers and threaded bung.

A properly built triangualted 4-link will have zero bind and unlimited articulation. And for people that say that they duck walk...... well they have probably never driven a properly built 4-link trophy truck. Anyway, the 3-link/4-link debate has been beaten to death in enough other forums. Personally you will never catch me building a 3-link rear end in any of the vehicles that I build.
Here is a video of one of the last trucks that we as Newline Products built before our TrophyKarts took over the business, we shot this video to demonstrate the way a proper 4-link works.
Newline 4 link - YouTube

The very same technology, and suspension geometry that you see in the video is how we built our RS450, and Mod Kart rear ends.
We put alot of time and development with the 4-link and and chain drive to get it to work the same way. Our rear suspension utilizes a sway bar not to control articulation of the rear axle, but to control body roll upon high speed corner entry and exit. We do not utilize a swing axle setup. Our rear suspension utilizes a true triangulated 4-link and that sucker is constantly moving in multiple planes keeping the power where it belongs. To the ground!

Our TrophyKart 450 Mod Kart rear end.



The main difference between the RS450 suspension and the 450 Mod Kart suspensions is that the RS450 is designed for dual purpose between short course and the desert with longer wheel travel versus the 450 Mod Kart being design specifically for short course off road racing on closed course groomed tracks.
Notice the trailing arms and shock placement on the RS450 below.


Our rear axle is also the same technology as the Trophy Trucks that we used to build. It is a full floater independent axle shaft ear end with big bearing hubs and drive plates.

It took us years to finally come up with a bulletproof package that is proven and works.

Bull, I think that your idea has merit and may work. Depending on how big you plan on jumping, and how much power you are putting into the rear axle, you may run into issues with axle keyways stripping out. We like big jumps!
NEATV Round 9 Englishtown Mx Trophy Trucks 2011 - YouTube

Just remember also, a chain, you can replace with a master link, but a belt needs to have the entire assembly split in half and it is much more of a pain in the butt to deal with. This is why we run the current configuration that we do as well. Maintenance sucks! longevity and user friendly is what we like. We had it all wrong in the beginning with the original JR1 karts. It was draining to take care of properly.

We think it's cool to see the new concepts that you guys are working on here, like Jody's new rear end. Its nice to see people thinking outside the box and trying new things. That is what we had to do as well, and if I had a dollar for every person that told us that building a chain drive full floater 4-linked rear axle, wouldn't work.....well, I would have an assistant to type this for me. But we were stubborn, and didn't listen, and we built it. Now most of those naysayers are running our rear ends in their cars, or they have copied our design principles. There are a million ways to skin a cat. Stick with it if you believe it will work for what you are trying to accomplish. And above all, have fun!!!
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Old 03-08-2012, 02:48 AM   #115 (permalink)

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Default Re: My 3-link go-kart rear axle concept

Awesome, thanks for the reply and the tips

I posted the original sketch back in 07 and the sketch was about 5yrs old at that point.Hmmm..when did you start the TKs?Just kidding,I didnt copy the idea,but I was thrilled when I saw the original TKs.

No CVT,my original idea was a harley belt(which I still think would work for low HP).Latest sketch is chain drive like yours.I'm going for much lower hp,kids stuff,so the lighter the better.

Yeah I would do a four link also,definately stronger design.I thought the problem with four links was that it moved the upper pivot CL behind the rear axle?

I've seen that video from E-town.Thats my local track.Never knew they ran TKs there though.Not much of a race with two cars but its a start.

Congrats on your success,you've(newline)created an icon of offroad racing for sure.
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Quote:
Originally Posted by TALON View Post
did you use a special bigfoot camera or something ,you know all blurry could be a tree stump kinda thing .

Last edited by Bullnerd; 03-08-2012 at 02:56 AM..
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Old 03-08-2012, 09:01 AM   #116 (permalink)

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Default Re: My 3-link go-kart rear axle concept

Racedezert can you explain to me how your sway bar on your
kart works when, for example you right rear is under compression
and your left side isn't?
what is actually happening to the sway bar?
If that makes any sense?
How does it function?

I cant picture how it would work just by looking at your pic
of the sway bar.
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Old 03-09-2012, 01:59 AM   #117 (permalink)

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Default Re: My 3-link go-kart rear axle concept

Quote:
Originally Posted by Bullnerd View Post
Awesome, thanks for the reply and the tips

Congrats on your success,you've(newline)created an icon of offroad racing for sure.
Bull, being a member of the team here at Newline/TrophyKart off and on over the years has been a great experience for me. Everytime I leave, Nestor always manages to drag me back! We have built some awesome vehicles, that is for sure!

Quote:
Originally Posted by buco View Post
Racedezert can you explain to me how your sway bar on your
kart works when, for example you right rear is under compression
and your left side isn't?
what is actually happening to the sway bar?
If that makes any sense?
How does it function?

I cant picture how it would work just by looking at your pic
of the sway bar.
Buco,
"Why is the sky blue? Why does a rainbow happen? How does the posi-traction on a Plymouth work?" How does a sway bar work. "It just does."
Actually our swaybar works just like every swaybar on any other factory vehicle out there. The principle is the same.
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Old 03-09-2012, 08:13 AM   #118 (permalink)

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Default Re: My 3-link go-kart rear axle concept

Racedezert,

Ok i thought i asked a simple question here,
But abviously to you it was a stuipid question.
Im not a professional in this industry and i might be taking this the wrong way
but im here on this site for advice!

To me you saying "it just does" isn't answering my question.

I thought we come to sites like these to help out people
on not understanding how things work?
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Old 03-09-2012, 10:23 AM   #119 (permalink)

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Default Re: My 3-link go-kart rear axle concept

The swaybar goes thru a pivot on the frame which allows the rear axle to move up and down.

In a straight line hitting a straight bump both sides go up evenly. The sway bar in this instance does little. Both sides just move it up.

But when you toss it into a corner as the weight of the chassis tries to lean towards the outside of a turn the link going from the axle up to the sway bar pushes upward on the outside. The swaybar in turn transfers a lot of this force (you can have stuffer or softer sway bars to "tune" it for different needs) across the chassis. As the outside pushes UP it tries to pull up on the inside of the axle.

This pulling upward helps to pull the inside of the chassis DOWN instead of just letting it lean outward.

The length of the arms on the sway bar make a big differance and so does where you connect it to the axle. As does the stiffness of the actual sway bar as they are often made of spring steel and can be gotton for different rates of flex.

They also work on IRS setups.

While setup right they can and do help cornering like all other suspension things the trade off is (especially on a true IRS) if you hit a bump with only one tire the sway bar by its very nature will transmit some of the force to the opposite side even if the opposite sides tire is on flat ground. This trade off is often considered VERY worth it.

Somtimes they are up like this one and sometimes they are more incorporated right into the suspension arms. There are also many different ways to create a sway bar system if you look into them deeply.
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Old 03-09-2012, 08:00 PM   #120 (permalink)

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Default Re: My 3-link go-kart rear axle concept

Thanks nutz4sand!

Much appreciated.
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