Shock relocation

[nutz4sand]

If you look at the pic of your own posting of a cantilever you can see I drew a green cirle around the shock. And and orange one around the arm.

The Pic I posted I did the same. It serves the SAME function. It just doubles as the arm.

Its a cantilever the same as the one on the butt end of the truck.

Just because it connects to the wheel through a ball joint and spindle and not through a couple Hiems and a rod first its still a lever and a cantilever at that.

[nutz4sand]

Ite really hard to see due to the size but I DID draw a greew circle around the shock and an orange one around the arm in my yellow armed buggy pic there. I shoulda made it thicker I guess.

[atomicjoe23]

Look at these cantilever set-ups from my archives. . .note the bellcrank linkages:









You'll notice that on each of these systems the suspension member is not acting directly on the shocks as it is in the picture earlier in this thread. . .instead there is an idler arm which acts on a bellcrank and the bellcrank actuates the shock absorber.

It is the design of the bell crank combined with an idler arm of the appropriate length which makes the cantilever system more difficult to design and work properly than a more conventional suspension system. . .the orientation and the length of each of the legs of the bellcrank determine the wheel-to-shock travel ratio and also whether you keep a rising rate on the shock in compression or end up with a falling rate (very undesirable. . .your shock would be doing the opposite you would want and would be getting softer the more it compresses!!!. . .very bad juju!)

[atomicjoe23]

I reposted the above response in the correct thread. . .I posted that last night, but I accidentally did so in the wrong thread. . .this post is where nutz4sand got the pic he was talking about.

[atomicjoe23]

I will give you it is a lever. . .whether or not it's a cantilever system or not I think we are just going to have to disagree on. . .unfortunately there's no dictionary of suspension systems that we can go dig through and to find what characteristics are required for a system to b e cantilever system or not. . .

. . .IMO it requires a bellcrank to act as an intermediate which the yellow buggy doesn't have. . .the yellow buggy is set-up similar to a cantilever system in that the shock are placed in a non-conventional location, but the A-arm is still acting directly on the shock which is why I don't think of it as a cantilever system.

Agree to disagree on this one with no hard feelings???

[Deranged]

On the "bagged buggy", it seems to me that the whole upper a-arm acts as the bellcrank, just not what you would typically see. Just my thought. I see what you both are saying though. the above pics. (wich are BAD ASS) has a seperate bellcrank, where as the other dosen't. the travel on the bagged buggy's shock seems it would be less than the travel on the wheel? To me that would have a cantilever action.

[nutz4sand]

Originally Posted by Deranged

On the "bagged buggy", it seems to me that the whole upper a-arm acts as the bellcrank, just not what you would typically see. Just my thought. I see what you both are saying though. the above pics. (wich are BAD ASS) has a seperate bellcrank, where as the other dosen't. the travel on the bagged buggy's shock seems it would be less than the travel on the wheel? To me that would have a cantilever action.

BINGO!!!!

Originally Posted by atomicjoe23

Look at these cantilever set-ups from my archives. . .note the bellcrank linkages:

A cantilever IS a lever. The linkage is NOT a part of a cantilever it just transmits motion. As long as the LEVER does the function of a cantilever it IS a cantilever! By allowing the tire to move a different distance than the shocks travel VIA a pivot point its a cantilever.

Originally Posted by atomicjoe23

[You'll notice that on each of these systems the suspension member is not acting directly on the shocks as it is in the picture earlier in this thread. . .instead there is an idler arm which acts on a bellcrank and the bellcrank actuates the shock absorber.

Done for clearance reasons only. If they could get it directly with less parts and less weight and still get the movement they would. The buggy achived this being a compely different animal.

[nutnbolt2002]

I would say that cantilevered suspension has no linkage or shocks out past it's pivoting point.

[atomicjoe23]

By saying that all that is required is that the wheel needs to have more travel than the shock does by way of using a pivot point every single suspension system is a cantilever suspension system, with the notable exception of shocks mounted directly to a straight axle and mounted at 90*. . .

. . .moving the shock farther inboard would reduce the amount of shock travel required to achieve "X amount of" wheel travel, angling the shocks also reduces the amount of shock travel required to achieve "x amount of" wheel travel. . .

What I feel is a cantilever suspension system is a suspension system using a linkage or bellcrank so that the shock can be mounted greater than 30* off vertical without affecting the spring rates. . .

I'm agreeing to disagree. . .it may very well be a cantilever suspension system. . .it is just my opinion that it is not, that's all. . .my opinion in the matter is not really important, what is important is that it works the way they wanted it too. . .if it works then it doesn't matter what you call it.

[nutz4sand]

Originally Posted by atomicjoe23

By saying that all that is required is that the wheel needs to have more travel than the shock does by way of using a pivot point every single suspension system is a cantilever suspension system, with the notable exception of shocks mounted directly to a straight axle and mounted at 90*. . ..

Technically many are. A lever is a lever. The location of the shock and the pivot point are different in a lot of cases. But that does not mean it does not do the same function. Not all cantilevers get more wheel travel than shock travel. Some are just the opposite.

Originally Posted by atomicjoe23

What I feel is a cantilever suspension system is a suspension system using a linkage or bellcrank so that the shock can be mounted greater than 30* off vertical without affecting the spring rates. . ...

I don't wanna know what you feeling anymore than you wanna know what I am feeling.... he he think about that for minute :]~

Seriously

A cantilever gets more (or less) travel out of a shock at the wheel.

The short version is this:

A cantilever is a beam supported on only one end.

Where the shock connects and the angle of the shock means nothing to it being called a Cantilever or not.

If its supported at one end. And trasmits motion or holds a force its a cantilever.

Originally Posted by atomicjoe23

I'm agreeing to disagree. . .it may very well be a cantilever suspension system. . .it is just my opinion that it is not, that's all. . .my opinion in the matter is not really important, what is important is that it works the way they wanted it too. . .if it works then it doesn't matter what you call it.

You can agree to disagree but that does not make it right. I am not talking opinions here but actually trying to show you the fact that it IS a cantilever.

If you choose not to look at it and see that it is indeed a cantilever thats fine.

I just want to make sure others can and do.

I do think its important to call it what it is too. But thats just me :] .