Whats best ???

[LEE1969GB]

I do not often look at the frame forum but when I do there is often a big debate on what material is best to be used for a frame and wishbones or why a frame has broken.
When I went to collage many years ago I do recall reading about different materials with different amounts of carbon content(the more carbon content the more brittle the material) and A list of about 7 or 8 different kinds of "strength" some have more elasticity, some have more amount of flex some react different from others after welding and so on.
It seems to me that a lot of these expensive materials are no better than cheaper ones, unless you know EXACTLY what you are doing with them (I mean using the correct welding method, correct filler rod, stress releve to the correct spec for that material, good design)
I have had 4 honda pilots 3 of them ex rental which have had a very hard life but I have never seen any sign of frame failure of even any cracks, so I was very suprised when I cut out one of the bottom frame tubes (to fit rotax engine) and saw there was a seam in the tube. I can only assume the reason the pilot frame is so strong is down to the design.
In the near future I will need to build a chassis so I think I will build it out of steam tube with 3.2mm wall and mig weld it together then thrash it over rough terrain and see what breaks.

[Bugpac]

I think the biggest advantage the pilot has is its size, the biggest problem with them is the thin tube rusts worse than anything else, from what i have seen and heard, they do bend very easily, they dont like fold in half or anything, but rarely is a pilot chassis true,, to oem specs....

[nutz4sand]

One other thing I noticed about Pilots (Just sold mine) Is that there are tubes in the side frame that do not meet at other joints and some swear thats the biggest no no there is. On top of a bolted on roll cage!!
Take a look at the sides of a pilot frame. Those middle tubes are touching nothing but top and bottom frame rails. Oh yeah AND THEY ARE BENT from the factory!

If I missed something there please correct me! Bill

[Bugpac]

Originally Posted by nutz4sand

One other thing I noticed about Pilots (Just sold mine) Is that there are tubes in the side frame that do not meet at other joints and some swear thats the biggest no no there is. On top of a bolted on roll cage!!
Take a look at the sides of a pilot frame. Those middle tubes are touching nothing but top and bottom frame rails. If I missed something there please correct me! Bill

Very good call nuts, id missed that myself...

[nutz4sand]

I notice you quoted me before I added the part about those tubes being bent too.

Also they are a far cry from a perfect triangle. Or even a goofy triangle even. Whats a triangle with flats where the points should be? (If this sounds goofy look at a pilots side frame. It will make perfect sense) I will see if I can snag a pic somewhere.

[Akpilot]

Here is a couple pic of the Pilot frame, I think you can see that the diagnal tubes are definately bent. I ultimately decited on "X" bracing the my Pilot especially because I lenghtened it.

Wayne

[nutz4sand]

Thanx for the Pics AK. Just to be clear to people looking those are stock pilot frame (minus paint(powdercoat)) of course and not your strecthed one yet. Correct?

[Akpilot]

Nope, sorry I don't have a unmodified frame. I guess this is an exaggerated example.

I guess if I can't be a good example then I'll be a bad one.

[LEE1969GB]

Originally Posted by nutz4sand

One other thing I noticed about Pilots (Just sold mine) Is that there are tubes in the side frame that do not meet at other joints and some swear thats the biggest no no there is. On top of a bolted on roll cage!!
Take a look at the sides of a pilot frame. Those middle tubes are touching nothing but top and bottom frame rails. Oh yeah AND THEY ARE BENT from the factory!

If I missed something there please correct me! Bill

BUT IT WORKS!!!
I do not think a frame being a bit out of shape on a buggy with long suspension travel is a big problem, I am thinking of the frame cracking or breaking.
IMO there so many materials, designs, kinds and methods of welding, that there is more than one way to build a good frame. A design might work well made out of one kind of material but not so good whan made fron another kind of material, the same could apply if made from the same material but welded in a different way.
Has any one ever tried to strain gauge a frame? For anyone who does not know what it is, its a way of finding out if a frame is going to crack in certain areas with out putting loads of miles on the frame, you put sensors in vunerable areas and it sences movement which tells you if it will crack and if so how long it will take.

[nutz4sand]

lol I know it works Lee. That was better than half my point.

I just think its funny that so many swear the Pilot frame is so so wrong yet it has pretty much stood the test of time. Sure some have had issues but some of those were in pretty crazy situations (not all I am sure but most)

Even those who don't say Pilot frames make comments on others designs and say the design flaw is wrong but the Pilot that vilotes so many of these said No-no's and yet it continues to hold its own.

As for the strain gauge thing I wonder what the cost would be for average joe builder? we all would like too know this about our rides. But dollar wise is it feasable for most?